Home > LoL News, Red Posts, Riot News > Discussions on Patch 5.16 Before Worlds, Mordekaiser, Darius, Skarner & Garen, Why Sandbox Mode Isn’t Coming to League, Context for Item Changes & More

Discussions on Patch 5.16 Before Worlds, Mordekaiser, Darius, Skarner & Garen, Why Sandbox Mode Isn’t Coming to League, Context for Item Changes & More

August 5th, 2015

 

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Scale and Timing of Patch 5 16 Banner

This discussion is in reference to yesterday’s massive patch, which you can check out HERE.

 

Patch 516 Juggernaut Reworks and Item Changes Discussions

Meddler Final PortraitHi all,

Wanted to link a bunch of discussions going on on the PBE boards at the moment regarding the various changes in the 5.16 patch, given threads on the PBE boards tend to have lower visibility than stuff here. Lot more change than the average patch going on, with some stuff that looks pretty weird, overpowered or over-nerfed at least at first read. Lot of details in the threads below that hopefully offer some context on what we’re thinking and what we believe the impact of some of these changes will be.

These threads are on the PBE forums specifically to gather feedback from people that are testing/will test the changes in game. Very interested in feedback from other people as well though of course, and currently reading a lot of it both here and on various 3rd party sites. As usual these are PBE changes and therefore subject to change as we polish kits, balance numbers, fix bugs etc. There are also some changes that are much more, or less, impactful in game than they may appear at a glance on paper (e.g. Morde gaining a bit of extra attack range).

Skarner:
http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/d2bmpMif-skarner-pbe-changelist-and-feedback-thread

Garen:
http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/Y7ELMJAK-garen-pbe-changelist-and-feedback-thread

Darius:
http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/Grx91k8I-darius-pbe-changelist-and-feedback

Morde:
http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KhcvQBlG-mordekaiser-change-summary-feedback-thread

New Items:
http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/rFbd7hyy-new-items-steraks-gage-and-titanic-hydra

Defensive Item Changes:
http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/yMtrbjGs-core-defense-items-pass-516

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Do you want our negative feedback on the changes

Meddler Final PortraitYes, I’d definitely like to hear the grievances people have with these changes, discussions like this one are one of the main reasons I spend time on the forums in the first place.

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Why are you changing so many things in a single patch

Meddler Final PortraitWe’re putting a lot of stuff in 5.16 for a few reasons:

  1. These are changes that have been developed together that tie in with each other. The state of Morde, Garen etc is going to be highly impacted by the items available to them. Releasing champ changes and items separately means having to wait longer to get a true read on how they interact with each other.

  2. After 5.16 we want to start focusing on balance and stability as we prepare for the patch Worlds will be played on (most likely 5.18). Putting all the disruption into one patch, and then taking a couple to balance it, gives us more time to catch issues than spreading it out over 3 patches and then not having any reaction time to issues that emerge in the third patch.

  3. We feel we’ve been a bit too conservative in the past in the run up to Worlds. Worlds should involve a stable patch, that teams can focus on, ideally with any massive balance outliers. That’s not to say it should reflect a game state that’s been unchanged for so long it’s starting to feel stale though. It’s about two months until Worlds right now, which we feel’s a good time to introduce some change before, as above, shifting gears to balance/polish.

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Why are you doing these massive changes right before Worlds

Xypherous Final PortraitWe have roughly 2 1/2 months of lead up to worlds and so at least 2 full patches to respond to any massive directional imbalances.

As for how massive this is – while there are a lot of items on the changelist itself – it’s mostly small tuning steps with one or two exceptions. Similar to how AP itemization goes – while there is a lot of holistic polish across the board – the net overall change should be moderate – at least for these core passes.

While I understand that’s not a super satisfying answer – I believe this is the last major update of the year in which a lot of things are happening and thus these item changes are meant to be a polish and tuning step to support a somewhat better ecosystem for those changes to live in.

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A huge patch right before Worlds means pros wont have time to adapt

Pwyff Final PortraitSorry if I don’t respond immediately. I occasionally comment and then go do work. I get that being deliberately inflammatory on the internet is how you get responses, and I hate rewarding that, but let’s actually talk about this because I don’t think we’re 100% correct, but at least we have good reasons.

First, I think it’s worth discussing what constitutes ‘too much change’ for pro play vs. regular play. There’s definitely a subjective concept (survey pros! survey players!), but I wonder what is objectively considered too much for a pro player to adapt on a patch to patch basis. That’s a super philosophical question.

Regardless, it’s worth noting that 5.14 is the patch that all of the playoffs are being played on (per esports’ commitment), and then a later patch (definitely post-5.16) will be the standardized patch that Worlds will be played on. Pros do get a period of time between playoffs and worlds to practice.

So here’s where we get to the concept of what makes a competitive player. Every game out there values specific things, from Counter-Strike’s commitment to reflexes, snap aim, tactical map movement, or Quake’s movement-based, tracking-aim, power-up placement memorization. League’s always valued player adaptability to a high degree – probably higher than most competitive games. We know there are benefits (from a spectating perspective games are more varied, strategies are being changed up, different playstyles can shine and truly talented teams can demonstrate their mastery by staying ahead of the curve) and drawbacks (players feel they have to ‘re-learn’ the game, optimization of singular strategies isn’t possible, players with narrow champion pools are negatively impacted).

In other words, I’d challenge stability as the ultimate indicator of a competitive player. Faker has long been heralded as the pinnacle of League talent, and we appreciate him because of his tireless commitment to mastering core game mechanics and systems, while also innovating with an evolving game. I’d also mention, I don’t think these changes are so massive that they reinvent all that is League of Legends – they offer new strategic paths, but I have no way of objectively verifying just how much more powerful new, emergent strategies are vs. players believing they are.

All that said, I’m not saying this is a fool-proof argument – if we hear a lot of discussion that this is just too much, that teams just can’t accommodate, then this is definitely a lesson for the future. I just want to make sure we both realize we’re coming from two very different perspectives on what makes a good, competitive game of League.

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Can we expect new mechanics on Nunu Mundo Fizz or Aatrox

Meddler Final PortraitAatrox definitely needs some work, agreed, he does some fun stuff, but it’s too general overall.

Mundo, with his massive regen, poke from a traditionally poke weak class and berserker playstyle (benefits for low health) is someone we feel’s pretty close to distinct enough. Would be good to do some smaller stuff on him at some point, we feel other champs need the work a lot more though.

Nunu we feel’s extremely unique. Long duration MS/AS buff he can keep on multiple targets, extremely strong objective control off a base ability, repeated attack speed slows from a support like champion and an ult that controls space in a pretty distinct way with extreme punishment after a long telegraph.

Current assessment is Fizz is in a reasonable spot, given the uniqueness his Shark and Troll Pole offer, both in terms of playstyle and relative to other assassins. Might need to reward him more for AP builds/less for tanky ones, not sure on that front. As with Mundo though some opportunity to differentiate him a bit more with small changes, but a champ we feel’s got a strong need.

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Can you give us more info on the upcoming changes to Shyvana Olaf

Meddler Final PortraitWe haven’t started work on Shyvana or Olaf yet besides some really rough brainstorming, in part because we want to see how these changes, and the associated item changes, go. Assess what works, what doesn’t, where we should have taken things further or pulled back etc.

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Will Shyvana still be able to carry games

Meddler Final PortraitCan’t offer you any details on what changes to her kit might look like, we haven’t started talking about that ourselves yet. Would definitely expect her to retain a strong damage focus.

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Feedback on Updated Darius Banner

You can find all the changes to Darius HERE.

 

New PBE changelist for Darius

Statikk New PortraitHey all,

Got some time to test him out this morning and talk with the playtest team.

We definitely feel his presence in team fights is way higher than he was previous to these changes.

My current concerns lie within the consistency of his laning phase and if he’s just bit too soft there.

Here’s the changelist you guys will see in the next build:

Q

  • Mana cost reduced to 30 from 40

W

  • Slow is now 90% at all ranks from 40/50/60/70/80%

E

  • Slow adjusted to 90% for 1 second from 99% for 0.75

These changes are aimed at making combo’d Q’s pretty much guaranteed. We want to ensure that there is still ample counter-play to the Q when used alone, but we’re pretty happy with Darius making it much easier for himself if he uses up his other resources successfully.

Overall, we don’t feel Darius is far off balance-wise in either direction, so we would like to take small steps at a time. We’re also really interested in how Darius progresses over time as people get used to the new Q.

Thanks guys.

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Responding to community feedback on the Darius update

Statikk New PortraitGonna address a couple of points I’ve seen brought up:

E’s Slow

Currently it’s set to be a 90% slow for 0.75 seconds. It is designed to help ensure that E -> Q is a fairly guaranteed combo.

Lack of an Execution Indicator

We purposely left this out of Darius’s update for design reasons. Darius’s design and balance actually revolves around his R’s success and failures more than any other champion in the game.

Because of this when we added an indicator, the Darius gameplay became too much about just reacting to a UI element changing rather than making interesting, risky, and snappy decisions in the heat of battle that might cascade into a pentakill.

In a lot of cases we would prefer consistency across our champions, but in the Darius case we feel like the lack of the indicator allows us to retain power in certain areas and makes him more enjoyable in the long run.

Removal of Passive Movement Speed

This is essential to the direction we are moving the Juggernauts. They are intended to be and feel slow, but hopefully have a ton of other strengths to bring to the table to compensate.

This change became extremely important to make especially after we changed Hemorrhage to deal physical damage due to the insane synergy Darius now has with Black Cleaver.

Q Delay

Along with Bloodrage, this is the most significant change we made to the kit and we feel it’s 100% necessary for the long-term health of the champion. We’ve struggled in the past to make melee vs. melee combat interesting and skill-based, so this is us trying to address that.

I know it can be pretty painful to get used to, but we’ve tested it pretty thoroughly and feel you guys will be able to get the hang of it. Adding the delay allows us to load more power into the Q (the heal and increased late game damage) without just making him unstoppable in lane and other dueling scenarios.

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How about making the delay on his Q scale down with levels

Statikk New PortraitThat’s an interesting thought. We definitely have struggles keeping gameplay fair as the speed and pace increases later in the game.

Haven’t tried that yet, but it sounds super intriguing. If we find that he is not able to hit Q’s later in the game, this might make sense.

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Follow Up Banner

Statikk New PortraitDefinitely seeing the echo of Q being weaker early and also harder to hit. Very much open to making sure his Q feels right in the lane given the more skill-based gameplay it has now.

Gonna get in a few games on him today and talk with the playtest team to see what we can do.

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Did you intentionally make Darius an even slower fighter

Statikk New PortraitYeah Darius is one of the more pure, raw Juggernauts in the game. He truly has no movement bonuses and has fairly limited reach (though his reach is better than some of the other Juggernauts that do exist).

Hopefully Darius feels powerful for being that clean-up monster that none of the other Juggernauts can bring to the table.

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So you arbitrarily designed that a class of immobile fighters should exist

Statikk New PortraitWell, I wouldn’t say “arbitrarily.”

Juggernauts were always a class of champions that we attempted to design (slow, tanky, high damage). We are simply taking a hard look at what we were trying to initially design, finding out where we went wrong in the past, and getting them to work in the modern day of LoL without just turning them all into the same generic champion.

Skarner and Garen are definitely on the fast side of Juggernaut while Darius is on the other side. We think it’s possible to make sure Darius can be stronger than the other 2 in different areas instead.

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Did you fix Apprehends range to be 550 not 540

Statikk New PortraitWe basically re-coded the entire spell to function in the manner we wanted. The E should now be entirely accurate.

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VIABILITY OF NEW GAREN Banner

You can find the complete changelist of Garen compared to live HERE.

 

Dont you think nerfing the silence from 25 secs to 15 is a bit much

Repertoir New PortraitMaybe it is, but I think 1.5 seconds still feels pretty substantial. If, for some reason, it’s too short, it could maybe bump upward a bit.

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Repertoir New PortraitIf there’s any part of the changelist that’s too much, I’ll be happy to reel it in. All data we have so far suggests that he’s at least as powerful as Live with these changes, and likely quite a bit stronger.

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Why was Courage W reverted to farming minions for flat bonus resists

Repertoir New PortraitThe flat Armor/MR model actually makes more sense in a world where Garen wants to build a lot of Health items (which he should have readily available to him in this patch). I think you may be right that it takes too long to farm currently, though. I’ll keep an eye out for that. This shouldn’t be too much of a nerf, since the Health items coming this patch (Sterak’s Gage, Ravenous Hydra, Warmog’s update, etc.) should allow him to build an abundance of Health and get more of what he needs in fewer items. I totally understand not liking the Tenacity nerf, but we do feel it’s important that Tanks and CC-heavy supports feel good about their efforts to peel the big tanky dudes running at their teams.

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The late game buff to Judgement means Garen will need ArPen items

Repertoir New PortraitThis skill also has a 5.5 Total AD ratio in the late game, so I don’t think it’s only amped by Penetration. Black Cleaver should be even better on him now, due to the higher AD ratio, as well as the fact that he’ll stack the passive faster due to the increased tick rate of Judgment.

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Why does Judgement slow Garen when hes moving toward enemies

Repertoir New PortraitThis change is intended to improve play during the back half of Judment. Keep in mind, the cooldown of this spell is lower, so you’ll get to cast it more often, and there’s also a cooldown incentive to turning it off early if the enemy has escaped it, meaning it will become available to cast even sooner. He does a significant amount more damage now, and he was probably too sticky to merit it. Garen was allowed to have that level of stickiness before because his damage just wasn’t relevant in the later stages of the game most often, but it should be now.

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His current and new Ws are stale abilities with little gameplay involved

Repertoir New PortraitHis W is pretty darn boring, but individual abilities can be somewhat bland if there is added complexity to the kit elsewhere. In Garen’s case, we wanted to keep him available as a beginner player option, and we took some complexity out of W active, put we put some back in the R passive, E activation, and W passive farming.

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Will the total duration of Judgement change from 3 seconds

Repertoir New PortraitThe total duration is always 3 seconds, so the game starts with it at 5 ticks per spin, and increases to 6/7/8/9/10 ticks per spin at levels 4/7/10/13/16.

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Follow Up Banner

Repertoir New PortraitLate game Judgment damage (all ticks combined) should be 280 + 5.5 TotalAD from 360 + 3.3 TotalAD

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MORDEKAISER ON THE BOT LANE Banner

You can find Morde’s complete changelist HERE.

 

 

Bot lane Morde will probably need to start Doran Shield or Cloth 5 pots

Meddler Final PortraitWe’ve also seen some Morde’s start Targon’s, particularly if they’re paired with a support that’ll really value the extra healing from that (supports that trade aggressively for example). Not sure if that’s optimal yet, worth a look though.

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If a team takes Mordekaiser bot lane they will probably take an ADC mid

Meddler Final PortraitThat’s what we’ve seen in most internal playtests so far. Some non ADC teams, lot of mid or top (or very occasionally jungle) ADCs.

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What supports have been getting picked to lane with Mordekaiser

Meddler Final PortraitSupports with strong CC have been the most consistently successful so far in testing, since they let Morde get onto targets with his Q and set up well for the W damage field. Double Targon’s has also proven at least moderately effective, again not sure if that’s necessarily optimal or not though.

It’s likely this direction will make it quite a bit harder for Morde to solo lane, given the amount of benefit he gets from duo laing. That’s rough on people that enjoy solo Morde, we did feel this was the right approach to take though to get Morde into a spot where he could be made effective without having to massively change him overall. We believe Morde’s strengths and weaknesses can be preserved, or even amplified, in a way that’s a lot more functional/healthy when he’s got an ally to fill in some of his gaps.

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Are you just looking to fit Mordes kit on some lane in a healthy way

CertainlyT New PortraitYour understanding of the changes is accurate. My goal is not to “use Morde to break the meta” but to find a healthy home for Mordekaiser where he can be successful while still being himself (slow, tough, CC-free overwhelmingly powerful damage dealer). My feeling was that for this sort of profile, the champion could not be both successful and healthy on their own. Morde needs someone to help cover his weaknesses and actualize his strengths. Supports stood out as natural complements. They too are incomplete champions, lacking damage but bringing a lot of CC and ally buffs/hastes.

There is no unherent reason why playing Mordekaiser bottom lane will cause teams to lose. Structurally, he has the ability to forcefully push games to a conclusion by using his dragon to smash down the enemy base. In testing, we have had just as many games where he succeeds as fails.

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Will you be trying to make more melee champions viable on the bot lane

CertainlyT New PortraitNot at the champion design level. I think there are a few possibilities that Mordekaiser could demonstrate:

1) Melee bot lanes generally are… are sufficiently enjoyable for all players and sufficientlystrategically interesting to warrant further proactive steps by us to dislodge players from their habits;
2) The existence of one occasional melee bot lane is interesting and enjoyable but does not warrant further steps by us;
3) Melee bot lanes generally are interesting and enjoyable, but Mordekaiser is a poor execution of one;
4) Melee bot lanes are antithetical to “good” LoL design, and so we should not seek to support them.

Personally, I feel that #4 is unlikely. This means the central question is largely about whether a) there should be more melee bot lanes and b) at what level that “pushing” should come from us. Candidly, Mordekaiser is pretty “forced”.

I would love for players to feel that they can identify situations to run a wider number of existing champions successfully as the duo lane carry. In fact, Yasuo was an effort in this direction. Unfortunately, he is either ineffective in that capacity (though statistically bot lane duo is his highest win rate) or players are uncomfortable playing non-traditional styles. If the latter is true than I see my role as a designer not to “push” more champions into the lane but to create social and strategic space for players to innovate.

This, then, is my hope for Mordekaiser: that his presence in the bottom lane spurs players to think more broadly about how they can build team composition that have a greater diversity of champion archetypes without the need for us to customize kits to that lane.

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How will Mordekaiser deal with being kited by the enemy ADC

CertainlyT New PortraitWell, your task is to find a teammate that can prevent him from being kited. If you can do so, you’ll probably win the game. Good luck!

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Isnt the nerf to his base movement speed overkill

CertainlyT New PortraitIt might be. I certainly didn’t start at 325. In fact, I was very hesitant and moved him down 5 MS at a time as opponents reported being completely unable to escape his onslaught. A major factor for this is that Mordekaiser has the base damage and base survivability to invest into a lot of movement speed items as the game progresses (Our playtesters often build him Targons–>Ninja Tabi->Phage->Trinity Force->Raptor Cloak->Rylai’s).

I think you might also be coming at this from the perspective of someone who has played “traditional” melee bot lanes, that must function as aggressive kill lanes in order to find any success. Mordekaiser has the scaling and defenses to whittle his opponents down and wait for a good opportunity (like a Thresh hook).

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Can you cast Mordes new W on yourself without allies present

CertainlyT New PortraitHarvesters of Sorrow (W) is not castable without an ally champion present. If you are alone as Mordekaiser, you’ll have to do without it unless an ally ganks/roams for you.

As others mentioned, Morde is still able to solo lane/jungle in our testing, but doesn’t shine as brightly as he does in a duo lane. I’m comfortable with that mainly because I do not think that Mordekaiser can ever be a marquee example of a healthy solo lane champion given how stark his strengths and weakness profile is — An excessive number of his lane matchups are determined either at champion select or through jungler intervention, not through the relative skill of Mordekaiser and his lane opponent. As I began to work on his mechanics though, the thing that stood out was how defined Mordekaiser was by those stark strengths and weaknesses. To round out his kit would have been to compromise him as a champion.

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Why the AD scaling on his E

CertainlyT New PortraitE in my mind is most healthy as a “parry” ability that provides a lot of instant shield. As a nuke, it lacks good play against most opponents, who can’t help but get into its range. As such, the damage had to come down a bit in the early game. I didn’t want the player to have to invest all their early skill points in a fundamentally passive skill, but rather in their preferred means of inflicting damage on their opponent.

Total AD scaling allows the ability to ramp up gradually across game time so that it is hopefully always meeting the needs of providing a “twitchy” active defense against enemy poke.

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SKARNER AND THE NEW CRYSTAL SHRINES Banner

You can find all upcoming changes to Skarner HERE.

 

Why are you changing Skarner again

Repertoir New PortraitWe wanted to give something to Skarner to optimize around other than just run at a guy. Adding potent zones of threat was our take on that for him.

Also, I think there’s a misunderstanding about how much potential gold these things give out as well, but I’ll look into that to make sure they’re not giving out too much.

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Wont the crystals force Skarner to afk farm until a fight happens near them

Repertoir New PortraitWe don’t just want him to afk farm the jungle forever, but we are okay with his jungle presence being higher than his lane presence overall in the early game. Also, his E is a substantially stronger ganking tool now with how easily it applies the old passive stun, so he does make up for some of the loss of entry speed there if he hits it.

Also, the MS nerf may simply not be needed. We’ve tested various versions of this Skarner, and it seems to be quite strong still, but it’s totally undertandable that players would be concerned over such a big base MS nerf. If it looks like he needs it, we can certainly give it it back. This changelist likely isn’t final yet.

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Wont the crystals make it so Skarner clears certain camps faster than others

Repertoir New PortraitHe’ll definitely have some camps that he clears faster than others now. With the crystals’ placement, he clears Red, Blue, Krugs, Wolves, and Crab incredibly well now, and isn’t quite as fast on Gromp and Razorbeaks. Also, the stun only takes 1 basic attack to trigger now following a hit E, so the loss of AS shouldn’t affect that.

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It looks like Skarner will be forced to fight in certain places to be useful

Repertoir New PortraitSkarner should still have a pretty reliable tank/lockdown threat (probably even greater than before in this regard, given how is E now works) outside of his passive zones. What the zones really provide to him is incredibly boosted DPS and stickiness.

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These shrines are free 30 gold and vision for the enemy jungler

Repertoir New PortraitThe vision on these things only lasts 10 seconds at the time they are captured, so they don’t really give much vision outside of the initial cap. And the gold they give out is basically symmetrical. In order for the enemy team to capture it and gain 15g, Skarner’s team has to own it (and they will hold it until the enemy team turns it over). Likewise, Skarner and his teammates will get 15g for recapturing it later. I do need to put in a better solution for level 1 gold provided by them right now, though.

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The 15 base MS nerf is unneeded since the stacking MS on his Q is gone

Repertoir New PortraitDefinitely keeping an eye on this. 15 MS nerf may not be the right number. Could be 5, 20, or 0. I’ll continue to monitor.

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Can you clarify why youve removed so much from Skarners Q

Repertoir New PortraitHis Q definitely still grants him bonus damage. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. The damage it deals is (TotalAD ratio) and an additional (TotalAD ratio + AP ratio) when charged. His clear speed is actually faster now.

You are right about him doing less dps in ganks now, but the ease at which he stuns enemies via E is increased pretty substantially, and the duration of the stun early game is a bit longer.

Feedback from playtesters has been that his E offers a higher total utility package than before, but I’ll keep an eye out for it.

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Context for Item Changes 5 16 Banner

You can find all the item changes coming to Patch 5.16 HERE.

 

Why are Magic Resist items being buffed

Xypherous Final PortraitMR itemization, especially end-game is not particularly stronger overall than it was before. (AKA – total end-game values of MR are relatively static compared to live. While Banshee’s and Visage have +5 MR – Aura MR is down by 5, for example.)

However, the build path for MR is a lot smoother to access – so reacting to an enemy AP should be easier. This nicely lines up with the changes made in AP to make building into a lot of AP items more streamlined.

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Why is Cinderhulk being nerfed

Xypherous Final PortraitWhenever Cinderhulk was problematic – we generally saw it was the case of late game – super unkillable tank of ‘oh god why.’

Thus the changes are designed to pull back on that case in particular – by shifting power from the multiplier to the base.

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Follow Up Banner

Xypherous Final PortraitCinderhulk should be more powerful mid-game to compensate. It won’t actually be a nerf until you surpass 1k bonus health (AKA 3 complete health items).

The issue with Cinderhulk is that after this point, it became rapidly hard to control the impact of any health item in the game – as the effects of said item were wildly variant – hence the adjustment.

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Follow Up Banner

Xypherous Final PortraitIt’s true that Cinderhulk is nerfed in the late game after your 3rd major Health purchase. However, until you hit 1000 bonus health – you are strong that you were previously.

With the jungle items in their current state – if you wanted someone to be strong in the extreme late game – your first option probably wouldn’t be tanks to begin with given that there are multiple routes for end-game success in the jungle that it’s running directly into.

The other facet of this is that if Cinderhulk has to compete in the end-game against these other two – what it effectively would have to do is create unstoppable characters that cannot be killed – and so even if it does work – it wouldn’t be a state we’d be particularly happy with.

Therefore, by shifting Cinderhulk’s impact to be more impactful mid game and less impactful late game – the item actually has a window to shine – rather than be overshadowed end-game by a devourer or completely dominant when it is good.

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What do the Thornmail changes mean for tanks who want to counter ADCs

Xypherous Final PortraitYou need to hard commit to armor in order to screw ADCs in the new Thornmail model – and ADCs that build crit can ignore Thornmail more than more AS centric ones.

If you’re trying to deal the same damage to a critical carry as before – you’ll need like 200 to 350 bonus armor (depending on the damage of the carry.)

It’s a net nerf overall – until you get into champion specifics. Rammus / Malphite in particular can hit much higher levels of Armor much earlier – and so their own synergies with the item increase, for example.

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Context on Riots statement for not working on a sandbox mode

Pwyff Final PortraitThis is a hard stance to take, but we do agree with what you’re saying. That’s pretty much why we opened with an agreement.

Where it gets fuzzy… on this comment chain someone mentioned (https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3fwiy0/riot_pls_league_of_legends/ctsl875) that if someone wants to improve their freethrows, they go practice freethrows – in League that means players should have an expected mode available where they can practice combos, flashing, etc. I’m not straw manning this thing but that’s always been a core concern when it comes to dictating behavior. I’ll explain:

An answer like “players will see sandbox mode as an expectation rather than a ‘fun tool’ sounds very ‘we know better'” but it’s a pretty significant concern when you look at other games (ie: fighting games) where, if a player wants to get involved, they need to hop into dozens of hours of training mode first.

So in a game that’s oriented around players playing to improve, imagine a world where you miss one flash over a wall and your whole team tells you to quit and hop into sandbox mode? Once again, I don’t think it’s an ironclad stance that will convince the world – I do think it’s got merit. I’d imagine everyone’s had games already where someone’s told them to quit playing ranked and to go play normals. If an additional layer of sandbox got added underneath, that’s what we’re talking about.


I think a different thread died, but I wanted to link out a more cohesive perspective on this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3fwuvo/riotpwyff_sandbox_mode_will_not_be_implemented/ctsqxen

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WHY SANDBOX MODE ISNT COMING TO LEAGUE

Pwyff’s comments are in response to Riot’s recently-posted announcement, which you can read HERE.

 

So youre not adding sandbox mode because of toxic players

Pwyff Final PortraitI’m going to push back on the concept of it being player toxicity, sorry if it got represented like that. I’ll walk through it again…

First, banksy has a comment here I want to hop off of (https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3fwiy0/riot_pls_league_of_legends/ctsq90u) and work from.

I think the concept of sandbox mode has a billion different meanings (free-form practice, custom game modes, etc), so just clear that we’re talking about a lot of things. The one that resonates the most is the concept of a free-form training mode for practicing abilities and techniques in isolation without the pressure of a game. That’s what we’re going to use as a shared definition!

When we say we have a lot of debate, we mean it. Even in discussions today, we have lead designers saying there are aspects of sandbox mode that we could or should explore. I’ve talked a lot about the risks in various threads, but I want to emphasize it’s not so much player toxicity as it is broad expectations. If the skill floor for fundamentals requires extensive time spent in sandbox mode, that’s kind of scary. But for many (including designers), this is an acceptable risk for the potential gains – like pros being able to practice or players who want to get better having that option. It’s choice vs. no choice, as many of you have said. I wanted to accurately represent both sides and acknowledge them.

The stance sounds fluffyish because it was born of necessity to put the conversation to rest. As banksy puts it, there are a lot of good reasons to explore training-sandbox mode and we’re having conversations even from these comments and replies. But in terms of prioritization, it’s still below our current ones. We are talking and we hear you – to do sandbox mode right will probably require a lot of investment.

Probably a lesson for the future then. For a nuanced topic like sandbox mode, that seems more like a discussion than something on a dev blog. It’s clear we sound super authoritative and hard-headed about this, so we’ll adjust. I do think it’s a conversation you can bring up as a “we still want this!” but we also want to be clear it’s not happening soon. In other words, an idea can be good but it also can not be a priority. There is DEFINITELY a better way to reach that conclusion because this one’s pretty, uh, painful.

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Pwyff Final PortraitI wouldn’t actually say it’s toxicity of the community as it is broad behavioral patterns. The thing about massive communities is how prone they are to group-think. I’ve said this before and this sounds super ‘we know better’ but it’s the same thing with community management. What a community ‘picks up’ as cultural norms or expectations sticks with them for a long time. I don’t want to analyze how these things get picked up in the first place, but if you look at something like the boards where there’s a lot of very heated debate over every little change, you can see that’s the ‘expectation’ of the environment. You can only really change that by iterative steps along the way (ie: “Let’s have a constructive conversation”).

Once again, this won’t be an answer that says “you are all convinced” – it’s an answer that shows there are a lot of underlying concerns and why it’s tough to judge which way that coin will fall.

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Pwyff Final PortraitI don’t think these responses are going to make things better or convince people who might have otherwise disagreed. I’m just making the stances clear on both sides, even if they are very, uh, polarizing.

Once again, I just don’t think this is going to be a “let’s convince everyone” because I get where your values are coming from and I’m just hoping people might see where ours come from.

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Players improve via educational mediums not from spamming solo queue

Pwyff Final PortraitI agree with you that educational mediums are huge for learning League – maybe we can get better at showcasing those (I believe in NA we’re highlighting them in the client).

The argument that “it would have happened already” with CS drills is something you do see even if it’s not on a broad scale. Where I’d say it’s ‘already happened’ is if you hop into a ranked game, perform badly, and hear someone tell you “go back to casuals” (or just uninstall). That does occur and that should be the last stop (or vs. AI bots) of where people go to when it comes to improving.

I realize I’m just repeating myself from other parts of the thread and it’s really clear the disconnect comes from a very odd “that is a risk” stance and y’all saying “it won’t happen that way.” I won’t say agree to disagree but…

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