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Gragas Rework and Why Pantheon is Getting Nerfed

March 21st, 2014 Leave a comment

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Why Pantheon was Reworked

A post popped up on the PBE community forums explaining the recent changes to Pantheon.

 

 

SmashGizmo Button Rioter SmashGizmo: Hey guys, SmashGizmo here to give some more context and details on the Pantheon changes you’ve already seen on the PBE today.

Pantheon’s one of the biggest benefactors we’ve seen from the recent spirit stone changes, and while we don’t innately dislike him as a jungler, we would like to both add some options for his opponents against his ganks and smooth out his historically lopsided power curve a bit.

The current changelist that’s on PBE is still very fresh and subject to tuning before it hits live, but here is the current full list of changes:

 

Aegis_ProtectionAegis Protection [ Passive ]

  • Now will block the attack of any siege minion or large jungle monster instead of a damage value based on his character level

 

Aegis_of_ZeoniaAegis of Zeonia [ W ]

  • Stun duration changed from 1 second at all ranks to 0.5/0.75/1/1.25/1.5

 

Grand_SkyfallGrand Skyfall [ R ]

  • Channel time reduced from 2 seconds to 0.5
  • Landing time (after circle appears) increased from 1.5 seconds to 2
  • Cast range reduced from 5500 at all ranks to 2000/2500/3000
  • Cooldown reduced from 150/135/120 seconds to 150/125/100

 

The passive changes are a straightforward modernization of the ability to make it reliably block the minions and monsters that Pantheon wants it to block.

W’s changes are aimed at power curve adjustment and I will be monitoring how much this makes his early ganks less brutal to weigh the gains vs. pain to Pantheon players.

R’s changes are a bit larger in scope and are trying to address a wider breadth of problems. The range reduction is there to allow opponents to ward more effectively versus jungle Pantheon, while the landing time increase is there to give opponents more time to react to an incoming Pantheon gank. The two together may be hurting Pantheon’s level 6 ganks too much, but I tend to go overboard with my initial changes and then tone it back with iterations when I get a better sense of what changes are actually accomplishing. The channel time reduction, on the other hand, is aimed at addressing Pantheon’s ult usability in teamfights and skirmishes. I’m hoping that this will give Pantheon some stronger options when using his ult more reactively, such as being able to escape dicey situations in enemy territory or quickly repositioning mid-teamfight. With this larger emphasis on mid-fight usability from his ult, I also wanted to reduce the late game cooldown so that he will realistically have it as a play making tool in almost every late game fight.

Just to reiterate, these changes are hot off the presses and are subject to go through some iteration before they hit live, but I didn’t want to leave you guys hanging without any context and missing pieces of the changelist.

 

 

Gragas rework

Gragas has been dominating in competitive play and Solo Queue and is being taken down a notch. Not your usual nerfs this time – we get a full rework! (for better or worse)

 

 

Solcrushed Button Rioter Solcrushed: Hey Summoners,

Although Gragas in his inception was designed as an AP brawler mixing it up with the enemy, he has historically been played as a mid AP nuke/poker. While we were fine with this, the recent resurgence of Gragas as a top pick has brought to our attention the problems inherent in this playstyle.

Gragas currently possesses strengths of long range burst, tankiness and disengage- carried by AP ratios on Q and R being so high that they will effectively two-shot you. This combination of strengths do not make much sense (why do you need tankiness if you are a sniper? Etc.) and are unhealthy for the game.

However, since Gragas was never designed as a sniper, he does not have enough tools he needs to be a valued pick if he is not two-shotting people. Therefore, just nerfing his current damage numbers will ‘Olaf’ him (his win rates are already super low for most players). When we looked at Gragas as a character, it made much more sense to retain the tankiness while hitting the long range burst damage and grant him the tools to succeed while being in the thick of the fight, rather than turn him into a fragile long range sniper, hence the rework. We are attempting to reposition Gragas as more of a bruiser/tank that better reflects the fantasy of being a large drunk dude who gives no @#$@s while ramming into people.

The direction of the important changes are below, along with the points of feedback (both playing as and against) I am mainly looking for!

 

Barrel_RollBarrel Roll [ Q ]

  • Damage reduced
  • Now slows Movement Speed instead of Attack Speed
  • Now deals more damage and slows for more as the barrel sits out

 

This lowers his effectiveness as a poke mage (since no one will be standing in the barrel radius for any amount of time) and gives more incentive to ‘combo’ his spells to knock people into a barrel.

The coolest play Gragas makes is when he uses Explosive Cask to knock the enemy into a Barrel that has been sitting outside and we wanted to incentivize that. The new effect on Body Slam will also synergize with this ability.

Feedback Point

Do you feel that this ability gives enough payoff for hitting the charged barrel?
Is his prowess as a poke mage too strong for how much cc he brings?

 

Drunken_RageDrunken Rage [ W ]

  • Much lower CD and duration, grants a one time hit bonus instead of AD.
  • Gragas can also move while drinking.
  • No longer restores mana.

 

The current Drunken Rage is a very dull spell that is simply a chore to upkeep. There are almost no cases where Gragas engages without this buff and there is very sparse gameplay associated with the trigger or the effect.

The new iteration hopes to create a more windowed effect to his DR and damage so there is richer play and counterplay. Also a Gragas who is drinking more often is a more awesome Gragas.

Feedback Point

Does the spell grant appropriate defenses to allow Gragas to function in melee?
Is there a pronounced success/failure case when Gragas uses his W at the right time?

 

Body_SlamBody Slam [ E ]

  • Now stuns and slightly knocks enemies back instead of slowing them.

 

We have moved some power from Barrel Roll to Body Slam to give him the tools be valuable without needing to deal tons of damage. Gragas should be able to function as a mid-teamfight brawler that acts like a brick wall for enemies trying to get past him and gum up the fight.

Feedback Point

Does the spell offer a good enough incentive for you to duke it out in melee?

 

Explosive_CaskExplosive Cask [ R ]

  • Deals less damage

 

Explosive Cask is already an awesome ability that requires mastery to use to full potential with amazing payoffs. However, currently it deals too much damage that dilutes its own strengths (You don’t care about where you knock the enemy if he just dies from the explosion).

We wanted the spell to be focused on its cool and unique strength – a huge radius ranged knockback.

 

 

 

  • Jax main

    Better nerf Irelia

  • r3d

    You better not make those pantheon changes go into effect…… I swear riot is drunk when they make changes. Do not touch pantheon at all. He is balanced the way he is and his ult is pretty much useless anyway since its so easy to walk out of…. If anything you should be buffing him in the late game

  • Gragi

    I love the stun on Gragas buff but his damage sucks now. Not saying he should 2 shot like he used to, but the barrel nerf is too much imo. The playstyle doesn’t change that much really…but the keg seems worthless now except in certain situations.

  • MEGLA

    He essentially has no ult anymore. That ult is all but useless. You essentially took a dead champ revived by meta and item changes, and killed him again. It’s not like pantheon is even a top 3 jungler in LCS – he just finally got in the mix.

  • k

    riot u r so hypocritical it is these kinds of mindless changes that make your game a inferior moba u sit there and keep changing your game and adding gimmicky crap in the hopes that no one will see the lack of skill it takes to play ur game but then I guess that is understandable considering the lack of respect u show to the people who actually play your game but like mindless drones the keep playing on unaware of good moba’s out there like dota and hon I do not really know why I tried ur game but trust me I know why I stopped oh and fyi runescape has better and takes better care of there servers then u and your crap pot team monkeys I hope soon people will realize how bad your game is and let it fade out enjoy forever the cold shawdow of ice frog

  • Panth

    The extended landing duration is so wrong! as for 1,5 was hard to hit enemies! but, with 2 sec… its impossible to hit…!?!?!?! so, his ult is just mere flash!! or for mobilise… go home, rito YOU ARE DRUNK….

  • hazah

    well arent you a little bitchboy. Not only are you a whiney little cunt, you are also completely wrong. He was very broken, especially in the jungle. Also, fucking read. These aren’t final. Jesus Christ. This community is the worst.

  • idiot_riot

    you simply raped pantheon… well the ult more avoidable and half range.. and like fooling a kid “But now ult costs 20 less mana guyyysss cmooonnn”… really ? well first of all stop bringing out unbalanced shit like Yasuo to pump ur sales… then think about the changes u make to other champs…

  • maleficas

    I play panth main and im not upset about this XD, pantheon seems to fault end game so increasing his late game stun duration is great, they havnt said anything bout changing his damage, his ult is being nerfed in u cant instakill bot lane when they push for a kill, (the extra reaction time i think will be withdrawn as it will never hit, tho the range reduction is entirely justified!) but with 0.5 second cast time u can superman away if you end up in a spot of trouble and with less cd time, im looking forward to seeing how these changes affect my fave champ

  • a pissed of guy

    Ye idiots, nerf more gragas;

    Because 1/10 players know how to fucking play him; PPl should know how to fucking dodge

  • MaxCrave

    This nerf is not simply enough! The other day, in a ranked match. Pantheon was able to 1v5 our entire team at level 10, we didnt kill him, and he walked away with a penta. No, he was not fed. He literally 1-shot Oriana with his spear….

  • Bot laner

    @Pantheono
    When You are playing jungle pantheon it is really great for You right now, but think about the other enemy lanes. When he can sky fall from the half of the map onto Your back and you will never see him channeling the ult because of the range, and the 2s stun. It is almost a guarantee kill for the enemy team.
    People will always disagree when their favorite champ will be nerfed, because he is too op.

  • Pantheono

    Riot, as a pantheon player, he is my favorite champion and mostly used champ too. I agree with many pantheon players that he doesn’t deserve this nerf. reducing his stun time with his W would make him a lot weaker because he needs the time to either put on tons of damage during that time or give a little time to escape enemies. if you guys change it to 0.5 seconds, he wont be able to effectively use his E or chase champs as well as the current stun duration. this’ll also make him loose effectiveness in early and mid game. For his ulti, i can understand why you want to reduce cast time for either quicker escapes and faster way to get to the battle but reducing its range and adding more time for his opponents to react would make it completely useless in engaging. 1. some of us can barely hit his ulti with the current range and if you reduce it, well lets just say we’re gonna do a lot worst. 2. adding more reaction time for his enemies to escape will pretty much ruin our chances of getting a hit -_- . this is what i honestly think as a pantheon player cuse hes a pretty balanced champ, and nerfing him would kill him.

    So please (if you were too lazy to read this) riot don’t nerf and kill Mantheon, you’ll just piss of a lot of spartan fanboys (woot) and not many would play him after (or if) you nerf him. Thanks riot

    -from a pantheon player :P

  • Glaive Warrior

    I don’t understand this nerf for pantheon, his only purpose was in early and mid game. After this nerf he will become really useless…no more dmg,no more passive,no more stun,no more ulti. A champion without abilities. I admit there must be some changes but not to kill this champion. YOU CANT DO ANYTHING WITH HIM NOW. I play him on top lane, but how i could compete with all that champ with CC,movement speed or too tanky. If this patch will appear no one would play pantheon. My favourite champ……pf. R.I.P.

  • Hotwing10

    Guys… Calm down… It’s the PBE. Everything is subject to change. The dev for the pantheon change even said he’s going crazy with it. And as for gragas, this isn’t a nerf. He didn’t fit his intended role. I agree that pantheon’s ultimate is a little crazy, but I also agree that it needed at least a little nerf. I think at max rank it should be at or near its old range, but maybe that will come in the future. And I’m pretty sure that’s not his completely new passive, that’s just going to be a little change to how it handles monster hits.

    Edit: yeah, the panth ult nerf is actually what I was hoping it would actually be according to today’s patch notes. Just learn a little patience and just nudge riot in the right way don’t rage the second you see something you don’t like

  • smh riot

    When they were thinking of changes to Pantheon, did they completely ignore the fact that Pantheon is viable as a SOLO laner as well??? The passive is completely useless and his ulti can be covered in walking distance… If these changes come through, they’ve practically taken Pantheon out of the game.

  • Cancerouslevelofcancer

    Now concerning the questions, About pantheon im pretty sure there will be some later changes to w, seems a bit punishing for the warrior, but hell, I would have to play it out. And about gragas, the mana cost/damage on q seems acceptable, people will actually have to save mana, time barrels, and not just one shot waves of minions at early levels, and the E I love it, was much needed, gragas now can deny channelings by going IN instead of out, and enough time to detonate a mid charged q, or an ult to subsequently land a barrel.. Im concerned about w, its a huge switch in gameplay, no more free mana, feels like every other mid now, just like its meant to be, the % damage will be really usefull late, but maybe not so at early, where your oponent might as well have less than 1k hp, well , its testable material

  • Cancerouslevelofcancer

    Reading these comments just show why the “community” we have is so infamous, you guys know you are watching pbe changes right? These changes have not happened, and as OP said, there is a chance they’ll get toned down, big deal
    And hell, theres a reason why out of every 10 rounds , 6 are pantheon, and every now and then, you see a stupidly bad gragas, that wins games just for the sake of being gragas, they take a spotlight the other 100 champions should be sharing, just for the fact, and hey its a freaking fact, that they are abhorrently overpowered, our meta is built by pros that try stuff they find usefull, then the servers corrupt it and start spamming it till no tomorrow, making this a freaking copycat of em, where is the game if a stupidly strong killer can jump all the way from mid to bot and take a triple kill in 10 secs; honestly, stop complaining, and adapt to the game, find new ways to play, instead of copying all you see on streams, theres more to this game than what they do

  • Linchador

    This is a joke?!?!
    I have seen in a video the new panth ult and it just sucks, u can cover that distance faster by walking. And now the enemies see the circle for more time, so that they can go out without any problem. And the last thing is the stun. HOW THE F*** IS HE GOING TO SCAPE WITH 0,5 STUN?!?!?
    This is pathetic riot, if u wanted to kill pantheon u are going to doit perfectly.
    He is one of my favourite champs and i even bought him a skin but if riot nerf him like that, I WONT PLAY HIM AGAIN

  • Pantheon

    @Lupo
    ofc pantheon need a nerf, but this nerf will kill him. It would be enough if his ulti range scale with lvl and his stun nerf is fine too

  • Lupo

    @MineHero
    Aw please shut up, Gragas was a champion that always had an overpower late game, he can 1 combo ko an adc or apc, he deserve it and pantheon was a champion with the ability to gank 2 lanes in 10-20 seconds, how that dont deserve a nerf?

  • gabe

    seriously why make panth shit, thats just stupid, just nerf his ratios a bit not his ult, like his jump is shit now and his ult is garbage, if you do this, no none will play panth.

  • ReignStorm

    Inb4 SmashGizmo mistakes benefactor and beneficiary.

    Awww, damn it

  • Pantheon

    @skepticalsummoner
    Pantheon has no lategame, efen with his 1,5 sec stun.

  • skepticalsummoner

    I just do not understand why you are nerfing a balanced champion such as pantheon is,
    making him impossible to play.
    Riot! By nerfing the passive, w and r, you are hitting the best of pantheon, making him a champion who is weak in early and in mid game too; with this rework the pantheon that we are used to know will be available only in late game,maybe. You are practically destroying a champion who is loved by many. I do not like it, and i am not the only one.

  • Lee sin

    Why not nerf vi as well. Her ganks are pretty much always successful.

  • Disco Rampage

    I love all the people crying. I like both changes to the champs. The ult is going to make him so much more mobile aside from just HURR JUMP THE MAP. And the Gragas changes make it sound like a champ I actually would play now. Good job.

  • Pantheon

    Better nerf Irelia, good old times.

  • http://www.riotpls.com davi5000

    ok r.i.p pantheon and gragas why destroy good champ instead of buff useless champ like sion poppy urgot galio fiora etc ?

  • MineHero

    Dear Riot
    I’m really disapointed with all these changes you’re making to Pantheon. His ultimate was main reason why he was even picked. Nerfing it will make Panth pretty useless – and I don’t think it’s what you want to achieve.
    Instead of killing champs like Pantheon, Lee sin and others (I think they are balanced at the moment), I think you should bring some changes to bot lane. Right now there are really few champions picked for bot lane. I see Sivir, Jinx, Varus every game, for support it’s almost always Leona, Thresh and Annie. In season 2 you could pick Kog’Maw, Urgot, Graves (not sure if he was in season 2) and many other forgotten ad carries, but now they can’t deal with the others. Same thing with supports (Janna, Taric, etc.). I think you should give soe buffs to these champions, so they could actually stand a chance against Jinx and Sivir/Thresh and Leona. Of course, this problem is not only noticable on bot lane. Nobody plays Veigar, Sion, Jayce, Olaf… They should be reworked or buffed. Leave Panth and Lee sin alone, focus on these forgotten champions. I want to win a game playing Galio once more! :D
    Keep up the good work, you are still my favourite company!

  • bumsore

    WHAT THE F RIOT.

    Pantheon has been balanced for a VERY long time – ever since you nerfed the F out of him back in season two. Now you R.A.P.E him? For that is what you are doing

    Seriously, what retarded monkey thought it would be a good idea to turn him into a jungler only champ? You are killing his laning with these stupid nerfs. Smashgizmo, I don’t know you but you are one hell of a downie for doing what you are to Pantheon.

    I really hope you lose your fan-base and another game over-takes you in popularity. Why nerf all champs so only a few are played? You just lost a well-paying player.

    Good bye and go to hell

  • Vinister

    why dont they also make pantheon’s w scale with ad b/c of these nerfs and lower cds. i mean hes a bully early game, but mid to late game he falls off pretty hard

  • fkuriot

    R.I.P pantheon

  • fkuriot

    fk u riot , if this nerf happened, what the fk is the use of his ult
    u r so lmao , why dont u just delete this champion

  • Pantheon

    @Rexau
    Stay at ur bronze u deserve it.

  • Rexau

    I honestly don’t know why people are complaining. I’m bronze and I’m fine with this nerfs. Pantheon as a jungler could gank bot while at mid or wraiths, maybe a long distance. It was crazy, he had his own teleport that was on like a 1-2 minute cd. His ganks were crazy, so nerfing his ganking potential is good.
    As for Gragas, he two shot people with Q and R. Don’t you think that’s a little op? Even jungle Grag could two shot people. His changes I like. You have to use your ult more effectively now for it to be beneficial. His E now stuns and knock backs a little, good for CC. His W I’m really not happy with, they coulda kept it the same, since Q and E took a lot of mana his W sort of made him stay alive in lane. And his Q, trading damage for a slow is always nice in team fights, since Grag will probably have decent ap ratios to still do damage, And if you have a CC chain comp, you can let your barrel sit for a few seconds to increase it’s damage.
    Honestly, I like a lot of the changes but we need to see numbers, then we’ll see if their actually good or not.

  • Peter

    Lee/panth/grag nurfs meh.. I think they are way under thought and the game designers are being too hasty with changing all these champs. They are making the game different so you have to play because its a different game they are legit just changing these champs for money.. Its pretty sad to see league die this way. But w/e new and better moba out soon from blizzard will almost for sure kill this game :( RIP League 2010-2014 ~Abonics

  • LeBlanc

    Dear riot. This is your game, so you can do whatever you want. Just few little advices. 1st of all, I saw someone said “nerf LB”. U mad bro? After changes on her Q she is more then balanced. About gragas, I’d only reduce damage ratio, but I wouldn’t touch his skills. His skills are working perfectly together, his W is making up for his mana, his q+e ms/as reduction are in place, only thing which is making him op is that damage. About pantheon now. Pantheon has awesome early game. If u could just reduce his damage and stun early on , and let it a bit higher late, it would make him a bit balanced. About ultimate, that will be a huge nerf , for both his early and late game. It is already easy to react on pantheons ult,if u lower range and increase time, pantheons early ganks and late engages will be ruined.

  • Wr3ckd

    If u do that to panth, gragas and lee, i will fly to dublin and shit so hard on your fucking Desk, and after that i will put this shit and throw it into your face. Serious. Are u taking drugs ?

    If u think u have to change these champs, then here are some tips.
    Pantheon: it is okay if u want to reduce his cast range, but !; u cant increase the landing time, it is hard enough to hit something with the 1,5 secs. but with 2 secs u wont hit anything, especially with this cast range.

    Gragas: Gragas is strong yes, but ; the “barrels deals more damage if it lays longer”, this wont happen. In 99,99% of the cases you dont have the chances to let it lay. So this is nonsense!
    His W. His W is what let gragas survive in early. He has high mana costs, and pretty slow last hit animation. So he needs his extra ad from the W. ” a single hit with more damage” wont help him, and u know that. and that it now gives no mana anymore is crap too, because of his high mana costs, he will go oom every minute, especially in early.

  • cmp150

    DO NOT DO THAT TOO PANTHEON!!! LEAVE HIM ALONE AS A SURVIVOR ppplzzzz

  • Pantheon

    @SwagaWin
    yeah but it would be enough, if they doesnt change how is ulti works and just tweak the range per level.

  • Pantheon

    @legendsofthedark
    Did I say I make this guide for you? 0_o

  • legendsofthedark

    @Pantheon
    What part of my post made you believe I will need a guide?

  • SwagaWin

    @CurSi
    Panth needed the nerfs, grag nerf is amazing. Typical bronzies like you don’t know what they want.

  • SwagaWin

    @Pantheon
    Uhm no, the channel time is lower so he can get away easier. The range nerf was needed cause he would have his own personal teleport that did 1k damage.

  • Pantheon

    @legendsofthedark
    np, he is still playable after this patch, i will publish a guide when the patch arrive.

    Pantheon is a survivor!

  • Pantheon

    they shouldnt nerf the range that hard, atleast make at lvl3 5500 range, come on u cant even use it as escape with that short range.

  • Seamen Salad

    I think the pantheon changes are great, he was practically a nocturne with an instant stun and more damage, and a better ultimate, now at least they’re on the same grounds.

    As for the gragas changes, they seem to be a move in the right direction, but it still feels wrong, I like how they try to make it so that actually leaving the barrel spinning is giving you something now, but I feel that it’s not going to work very well, because of how long you’d end up waiting for it, and for the most part, he won’t manage to ulti someone into a barrel, it will be possible, but so is hitting an ashe arrow across the map, it benefits you, and you can try it, but it rarely works out.

  • Sion

    Im still waiting for my rework.

  • NiChrome

    Pantheon: The global presence is not there, which in my mind, was what he was good at. That needs to be there..

    Gragas: If the stun is long enough that a team could jump on them or long enough to do more damage with the barrel, power to you, but Gragas isn’t that OP and I’d much rather see you buff other champions.

  • raised

    @Pantheon i dont, because you like the champion and his kit, not just playing him because he is “OP”, i started playing pantheon because i saw him in LCS and stuff, i have grown to really like him, hes good, even after this ult radius nerf. Nocturne is my 3rd most played champion in ranked roght now, i am in silver 3 at the moment, bought and played nocturne either right before season 3 ended or during preseason, i forget. But i like both champs, and i will contine to play both champs, they have good kits. You would contine to play pantheom because you like his kit, not because his kit is “better” than other champions. It is a factor, but unless it is actually the exact same spell but one champ does 50 extra damage, every kit is different in some way. Yes pantheon and nocturne are similar, but i actually would not say nocturnes kit is better. Do you just see the bad parts of this change? I agree its a nerf but look into it, his ult is actually better despite the range, it works as an escape now, instead of being stuck there trying to jump while getting killed, you are in the air longer, his splitpushing is better now, late game is stronger, he only lost ult range, which is still high enough, and stun duration, that one hurts, but he still has damage, gap closer with a small* stun, and a long range AoE jump nuke

  • Hrakuun

    @K
    range of ulti reduced from 5500 to 2000-3000… goodbye pantheon

  • Pantheon

    @K
    because pantheon is a early champ and if u cant snowball early u are useless in lategame and his ulti range is just a joke. U cant gank properly with ur ulti now cause this landing time its to long, its already hard when u gank bot with leona or thresh+ adc have escape, but now the 2sec delay u have nearly zero impact to get a kill cause they can escape to easily.
    U cant call this global ulti now. Its now a girldrop, no power in his leg or why so short range.

    I mean he was a good jungler even before lizard got the change.

    Most people max w at last, but i dont care about this nerf.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6eItCDDeMr0/UytImP9G75I/AAAAAAAANo0/LoPkxyHLuTQ/s1600/panth.jpg His Ulti range is shorter than noc ulti!

  • K

    All i read is a buff for Pantheon…. ( correct me if i’m wrong ).
    His stun has 1.5 sec stun duration when maxed, his ult lower cooldown, his ult has 2.5 sec channel time all together from 3.5 seconds. ( in Teamfights 2seconds to land is enough when its a chaos + cc’s and use it more wisely, tards ).
    How is this a nerf? 0.5 sec stun duration added, less casting time on ult and lower CD, i dont get it…. and some champs are too braindead easy to play like kassadin was, why do you think champions are popular? because their in a sense OP, and when champions are easy to play, they get popular and people play them, you dont see alot of skarner,urgot etc, because you cant 1 button pentakill with them like Katarina and Fiddlesticks.
    You guys are just blind to the truth that some champions need a nerf.

    Riot should nerf more champions in my opinion, but not too hard nerf (like kass maybe). And if i was Riot, i’d rather listen to the “pros” and people who seem to know wtf their talking about rather than some trolls on the net.

    Then again correct me if i’m wrong, which i doubt. Time his R rather than just being a Tard.

  • Pantheon

    @raised
    now tell me why people would play pantheon instead nocturne, when nocturne has the better kit.

    I will still paly Pantheon cause i main him since he came out. But still riot nerf all champs that are played in lcs.

  • raised

    Why are so many people getting mad? I think these are decent gragas changes. People dont understand that Riot needs to balance champions, then people get mad because they are nerfing their favorite OP champs. The only people who found it fun that gragas coult ult-Q and kill either ADC or mid was gragas himself, and his team.Now for pantheon; i love playing pantheon jungle, its really fun and really strong. Someone on this thread said “just nerf the spirit items” well thats not the point, the spirit item change was great because now a lot more champions can jungle, this is a good thing, would you rather go back to only 1/4 of the champions working in the jungle or would you prefer 3/4 of them to be decent? Pantheons biggest problem was his “tons of damage” early game mixed with a lock-on stun/gap closer, which only got stronger at level 6 when he gets a global. These ult changes are pretty much going to make him more like nocturne, he can still jump behind bot lane, he just cant do it all the way from mid lane anymore. I will be sad to see pantheon fall out a little bit, i will still play him probably, he still has all his damage. People need to stop getting mad about 1 person getting nerfed, sometimes too hard but normally it makes them balanced, gragas was pretty toxic to the game, his late game damage was stupid with a 2 spell ranged combo. There are 120 champions to play, its pretty hard to keep them all balanced.

  • Katamari

    Riot forever focused on nerfing champions in the meta instead of buffing champions that have the potential to counter-act those champions. Always the quick fix…

  • PentaRainbow

    FUCK YOU RIOT

  • Goodlike

    @Jensel
    You’re soo dumb.. Lulu just got nerfed .. kinda hard

  • Snapiorek

    Pantheon ……… RIP

  • pantheon nerfed to the ground

    @pantheon nerfed to the ground thats 2000 range btw

  • pantheon nerfed to the ground
  • DontBeShyGros

    Why does Riot always change things based on what happens on the pro scene…;

    PRO PLAYERS ARE 1% OF YOUR COMMUNITY!!!! WE ARE THE 99% OF YOUR COMMUNITY AND WE ARE THE 100% OF YOUR BOTTOM LINE!

  • legendsofthedark

    What has happened to the whole “we don’t want to force the meta”? You keep changing everything to suit your own vision of the game, and you are not even doing it in a clever way, but simply hammering into oblivion everything that is currently considered poular.

    You’re killing Panthion with the rework nobody wanted. Taking his signature move and cutting it in half does not make a better champion. By nerfing him, you are not making him any more ballanced. What you are doing is removing him from the optimal pick back into the niche. Because who would pick this post-rework Panthion when there will be plenty of other champions who can do it vastly better, now that his ult’s range has become meanigless. Or is Elise the next one to be reworked on your executioner’s chopping block?

    You’re killing Gragas with the rework nobody wanted. You wish to make him viable in the top lane once more as a brawler. That’s okay, I understand that. But have you paused to consider how this proposed rework would also make him next to useless in the midlane? The charge up on his barrel will almost never hit, and people will most likely use it purely for the zoning effect. Great for the toplaner, but what use is the midlaner who can almost never hit his full damage? The mana sustain on his W is one of the key features that make Gragas – Gragas. The single on-hit effect does not seem to be worth the channel time, even though he will be able to move. Pehaps if the damage of that one on-hit effect had a charge up similar to what you are proposing for his Q? His E will be most useful, and is the only real good thing about this rework, and it’s absolutely great for the toplane brawler, but it fails to compensate for the midlane Gragas’ reduced effectiveness as a burst mage (the only reason people wanted him in the first place). The damage nerf to his R is just plane unnecessary.

    You made Kassadin nearly unplayable in the previous patch. He’s not only not ban worthy anymore – he’s not even pick wothy. And you are already aware of the community’s opinion on the Lee Sin rework. So simply alow me to repeat my earier sentiment: who is next to be reworked on your executioner’s chopping block?

    Dear Riot, must there be a mass exodus of players before you realize that this new approach to business, where you show no concern for the players opinions is a bad one? Must you make DoTA2 that tempting for us? We love the League. I love the League. But you are slowly but surely showing your intent to change everything players hold dear in this game.
    Dear Riot, I am begging you as a player who has spent more money on League of Legends than on my entire gaming history combined and still intends to spend much, much, much more than that before I am satisfied. Return to your old business model, where you design, and the players addapt. Make sure that the game is balanced, YES. But please find a way to do it other than taking the champions people love and making them unplayable.

  • DontBeShyGros

    Gragass

    Why nerf Q… Not easy to place and easy to dodge

    Why change W… it’s perfect as it is now

    Change E… the only thing i like is the idea of stun.. but still i prefer move speed debuff

    Why Change R… ulti is soo hard to capitalise well on in TF.. it’s already a Make or Breake ulti..
    now it will be a useless cc

    It’s not like gragass was stoming evey game.. even Froggen who is at his peak of skill for the moments doesn”t do a 10/0/10 on his games…..

    Y not nerf a Leblanc who has a scandalous early game for example…

    I agree with what everybody thinks… y nerfing everybody… Y not buffing weaker champs then ?

  • fatmando

    Because that’s how you become wow, well he’s good so let’s just make everyone else better, and then we endlessly cycle@Melodrama

  • kidsonik

    @Paul its actually more like garens ult from a far, darius ult does true damage where as garens does more damage depending on missing health. Same with jinx ult.

  • Lincoln Arrais

    I think I got it:

    Riot servers just can’t handle so many people playing League, no matter how they improove them. So they took the other way: make part of that people stop wanting to play League. Simple as that.

  • Hi

    @Jensel
    nerf lulu

  • Melodrama

    Instead of changing what CURRENTLY is considered strong, they change all of the older FOTM. Instead of nerfing all of these champs, how about buffing some of their matchups, or the general game to accomodate their strengths…

  • Jerome Biggums

    STOP NERFING EVERYTHING! Gragas has been pretty much the same since he was released he had only became amazing when riot nerfed all the assassins in season 3 and now your going to rework him to this garbage? I love gragas he is one of my favorite champions and although I agree something needs to be done about his strength, this rework will absolutely DESTROY what he is. “The current Drunken Rage is a very dull spell that is simply a chore to upkeep” with lowered CDR and duration this will make it even more of a chore to keep up.

  • Paul

    And how about releasing jinx and giving her umm, lets see: Highest atk speed or highest range + damage (player gets to decide) / a long range, huge damage 80% slow??? no cast time root? oh and why not global aoe ultimate which is basically aoe darius ult from afar . How about Sion? I don’t think you lads remember this champion at all. i think there are waaay better things to fix, and yet i dont see a single one commenter who likes the changes

  • Paul

    Waay too many knockbacks in game

  • Jensel

    @Jensel

    The worst part is that Riot isn’t even smart about the nerfs. There is like NO counter to Lulu mid at the moment, then they just go in and nerf Gragas instead. Lolol

  • Jensel

    What’s the point of balancing the game anymore? The next best thing is just gonna get nerfed in the next patch. The cycle of nerfs continue, everything will get nerfed, then the game will suck.

  • Lolgragasisbetternow

    Yall are stupid lol. When riot says “reduced damaged” it means same damage at rank one, and ten less per level up, per level. His ratios aren’t changing. He’s going to hit for like 60 dmg less with ult. And the changes to his q are amazing. Ur stupid

  • Dakk

    @Thomas
    What drugs are you on?
    1. Gragas needs this tone down. He is a burst mage with a blue buff that boosts AD for a period.
    2. Mid Annie and Supp Fidd still work. Don’t know why you think they need a buff.
    3. Globals are just plain unfair for junglers. You just want to do glass cannon Nocturne that can Ult from Bot to mid. He is a fine jungler if you build tank. (FYI Vi is getting nerfed, and Elise has been already. They do not need to be touched atm.)
    4. Karthus and Rengar are completely fine. Rengar NEEDS his upcoming rework, he is so viable right now, his kit is so face roll and now with the new Tank Rengar, he is even stronger. He just gets Damage and Attack speed stacked twice now. I’m glad this rework for Rengar is coming, his ult will finally be balanced.
    5. Thresh is getting an AD nerf and as for Caitlyn and Leona, they are fine, Leona isn’t impossible to beat and Caitlyn has no attack speed early game, she is fine. If you think Caitlyn is OP, you should probably stop talking right now.

    6. You are stupid.

  • RagingRemco

    Why nerf pantheon? His ult is already hard to use as it is, and now your making it even harder to hit enemy champs with it? and you nerfed his stun, you haven’t re balanced him, or made certain aspects better, this is a cold hard nerf on a champ which isn’t op in the first place, he has now become much less viable in top lane or mid lane, which is where a lot of players including myself play him, we don’t get that awesome jungle item to help us, at least give him some bonuses to balance him out, lower the mana cost on his q at early levels, it is way too high if you are also implementing these nerfs.

  • c6

    Everyone bitching about gragas nerfs, when he is probably the most broken champion atm. Ult chunking a whole team for half hp,perfectly balanced. One barrel doing 500+ aoe dmg, perfectly balanced, a 70 AD buff,reaching higher ad numbers than most actual ad champions at low levels + damage reduction,perfectly balanced. Stop bitching because your broken champ will be balanced for the first time ever.

  • tehwhiteboi

    @Thomas
    Irelia is getting a buff, or has already gotten it? not sure. (her W costs no mana now).

  • Hakuna

    So basically they ruined his W

  • Theonethatdothing

    Welp another gragas nerf, look like riot trying so hard to make him useless mhmm

  • ??? Dii Reyn

    This is terrible. No one will ever play Gragas again, he needed to be balanced, not obliterated.

  • I main mid

    Gragas needed i slight tune down, not an entire kit re-work. this seems a bit over the top. gragas combo was a bit ridiculous and his sustain was fine you should have nerfed the Q and made his E a longer CD . With his ult they are basically putting it back to its normal damage a couple patches ago which makes no sense. Im actually excited to see how riot plays this one out looking forward to playing the new gragas ;)))

  • Mimiron

    @Henry14

    Goodbye mid Gragas, helloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SUPPORT GRAGAS.

  • Mimiron

    @pantheon

    He can still gank pushed lanes just as easily, all it means is you have to come from behind and have to spend more time getting in position. If you’re a good Pantheon this is a late game buff.

    14 year olds everywhere.

  • Koolplatypus

    I do agree many meta champs are strong ATM but i remember there was a time where everything was balanced and the reason it changed was too much complaints about new balanced champs being “OP” so rather than buffing outdated champs they nerfed balanced ones. After doing this for so long, everything has became pretty messed up. The whole fiasco of the meta change in S4 and now the game is so jacked, they dont even know what to nerf and buff anymore. Panth wasnt OP, his ult range was what made him usable but other champs were able to do better because they were strong. And now because other champs are weak, they decide panth is broke and nerf him instead of adressing the real problem that too many champs are just too weal or too outdated

  • Thomas

    Riot REALLY need to stop ruining champions.

    Nocturne, Irelia, Rammus, Mid Annie, Fiddle supp, Evelynn’s getting there, Rengar is less viable, Twisted Fate, Karthus.

    Stop fucking doing this Riot… My old main was Nocturne, now he’s bad.
    You take the global ult from Pantheon

    Meanwhile, Elise and Vi are still stupidly overpowered, and yet nerfing Pantheon is on the top of your list.

    When I see:

    Buffs:

    Rammus
    Nocturne
    Irelia
    Zilean
    Karthus
    TF

    and

    Nerfs

    Vi
    Elise
    Renekton
    Caitlyn
    Thresh
    Leona

    I will be happy

  • Wesley

    Gragas rework? What a joke.
    Panthen nerf? How about nerf jungle items.
    Rito, competitive play is not everything.

  • Koolplatypus

    I really dont understand the gragas rework, saying they want to make him more of a brawler and changing his w so he can brawl for 1 hit instead of a timed duration? How does that make sense? The E was a good direction, the Q change is pretty dumb, all it will do is disengage. “Oh, a barrel, better take two steps back before it actually does any damage” and how often does ANY gragas ult someone into their old Q? Yeah i know it happens but not very often and even less of the time is it on purpose. Why not just nerf the Q damage and make it a knock up or some form of cc for him to capatalize on AD-wise. And as for panth, his ult has always been easy to avoud, way to make it easier. I did feel like panth was pretty strong recently but you kind of overkilled, now his ult is basically tf’s with the exception of dragon/baron pit.

  • http://www.pornhub.com DoubleliftsSon

    @Evan is Jesus you’re fucking stupid, panth didnt need one he was so balanced. like his passive completely ignored turrets which not only was perfectly balanced and it allowed him to dive your bitch ass.

    wanna box?

  • Triple

    No one will play panth now… His ult was the main reason ppl played him so you can gank really effectively. The new Ult is great for escape now tho 0.5 cast time to get into the air pretty cool ganks can be pulled off from that now… can see level 6 dives where he aggros kills then ults out.

  • Evan is Jesus

    @pantheon
    Yo, your name is “pantheon” on here. I feel like you main him, no wonder why you find this nerf dumb. He needed it and he’ll still be useful in low elo.

  • Henry14

    they want us to play like faker if the think that people will use the ulti to combo with a standing still barrel@ImGreg

  • Edwin

    Gragas op isn’t because he dealt so much damage, but that his fire and forget nature from his spell range often left no counter play. The only time you could jump on a good gragas was when he drank. Now he is even more mobile and just long range. Gragas is a good mid still, but now he will be a great jungle and top. Those pantheon nerfs hurt. The ult needed it, but the other skills weren’t needed. He just gets out scaled before and he now has alot weaker early game while still being out scaled late game. Pantheon will still get played, but not like before.

  • Graggy

    Hope this does’t go live… My favourite mid laner would be ruined

  • Papasugar

    @Meh

    yeah stop playing if you can only play this op shit

  • ImGreg

    Also, I find it hard to believe that the extra on the Gragas Q to be effective at all. Having a barrel sit around for a while and still hit something is pretty difficult. The ulti-into-barrel combo is a pretty edge case scenario for a skill to be based around.

  • ImGreg

    I’m curious about how pantheons ult will be usable, particularly in the early levels. While I agree his range was a bit too much, this nerf seems a bit over the top. I’ve taken a look to see what 2000 range units look like, and I find it difficult to believe you’ll be able to get into even remotely as good positions as before — not to mention the extra cast time for landing. I like that you will be able to ward defensively against this ulti now, but that was the principle of panth ganks that made him strong. Then adding the early stun length reduction will make his ganks rather lack-luster imo.

    The Gragas changes seem interesting. Adds a lot more utility to the champion. The stun on the body slam will be cool in combination with the slow from his barrel (Q). I didn’t like the two-shot combo he could use to pick of a couple of people at the start of the fight (usually adc/support). Wasn’t much fun and there was very little counterplay to it. I don’t like that his W no longer gives mana back though. He has such bad mana issues to start with, at least add some mana reductions to the cost of his spells maybe?

  • Meh

    Idk do you want me to quit playin this game or is this Gragas a joke?

  • now9

    Finally nerfing gragas :) or at least making him hard to play

  • Henry14

    that gragas q will be useless, Q = no poke= nothing. Q no poke + no mana regeneration good bye gragas
    and pantheon ultimate is the only thing that makes usefull pantheon in late game so.

  • Chefo

    @TheEagleSage

    He’ll have a lot less sustained damage from Drunken Rage, plus he has to wait for his barrel to ramp up in damage. I don’t think jungle Gragas will be as good as it is now when these changes hit live, IF they hit live. (remember, PBE, tentative content, etc. etc.)

  • TheEagleSage

    is it just me or does these changes to gragas suck for him mid but kinda makes him better in jungle?

  • pantheon

    pantheon will be useless now. with every update you manage to nerf something. why ?

  • CurSi

    pantheon nerfs still stupid
    gragas idc he’ll still be op…
    why do i even read this it never changes
    nerf enrf nerf –> 5 champs played of 120…