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The Future of Champ Select

March 15th, 2013 Leave a comment



Rioters have stepped in to discuss Champion Select and its issues with the community! What are their plans on improving player experience during those crucial minutes? Read on to find out!




Champion Select – a less toxic environment



SantaLyte: We want to take some time today to talk about Champion Select.

1) What are the problems?
2) What are some potential solutions?


The player behavior team has been running research on Champ Select and we agree that Champ Select is currently not a great environment and does not set teams up for success. We’ve all experienced Champ Selects that have erupted in arguments and had that sinking feeling that the game is lost before it even started. In saying this, there are plenty of Champ Select lobbies that are awesome and being positive and cooperative in every lobby does help; however, being positive by itself will not solve the problems in Champ Select and we don’t expect it to.

Solving player behavior problems in League of Legends requires collaboration between us and players and we haven’t done our part in Champ Select yet. As you can imagine, the problems (and any potential solutions) are complicated.

Something we’re seeing in our research is the influence of context.


Consider a player that’s having a bad day at work and nothing seems to be going right. This player goes home, and loads up some League of Legends thinking, “I really just want to be a Mage today—maybe Annie.” They enter a lobby, and second pick calls “Annie.” The first pick says, “fk, I’m mid, I want Twisted Fate. I’m first pick.” The lobby crumbles in front of the player and he doesn’t even want to throw his suggestion into the mix—it’s a lost battle. The team enters the game, and the player plays poorly… and his teammates yell at him. “You suck at Support, why didn’t you choose a Tank.” The player snaps. He rages back.


But you know what?

This player’s behavior isn’t toxic. He’s just like any one of us–we all have our bad days.

Let’s break down this scenario into some of the problems that we’d like to solve in Champ Select:

1) Real-Life Context | This scenario really illustrates how context outside the game can influence behavior inside the game. Traditionally, game studios don’t design or solve for context. Or can they?

2) In-Game Context | This scenario illustrates the conflict between Pick Order and Call Order. When there are literally no guidelines, at best, half of the players believe in Pick Order and half believe in Call Order—we’ve created a situation where conflicts are expected rather than rare.

3) Time Pressure | From psychology, we know that time pressure sometimes twists context in hostile ways. Players in Champ Select are effectively trying to negotiate with each other over individual goals (i.e, what role I want to play this game) that overlap with team goals (i.e, given this set of teammates, what’s the best strategy for us to win?). Studies suggest that throwing time pressure in there is like adding fuel to the fire—the end result is more disagreements and lower quality of negotiations.

4) Cognitive Biases | Hopefully davin will talk more about this, but people show cognitive bias in many ways. For example, many of us enter Champ Select thinking we are the best at whatever role we want to play—this is statistically impossible; however, there’s no reason to trust any of the strangers in the lobby. This really isn’t the players’ fault, it’s simply being human.

These are some major problems with Champ Select that we’ve identified in our research. So what’s next? A lot of players have suggested the following:

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?



The Vote Kick System


This is my favorite because generally if there is a problem in pregame lobby it boils down to one particular unfriendly summeoner.


SantaLyte: In response to the 3 possible suggestions:


Vote kick is an interesting idea that has been suggested by players for quite awhile; however, what are some of the goals we’d like to accomplish for Champ Select?


One, we want to encourage cooperation in Champ Select. Two, we want players to have an ability to opt-out if they are ‘stuck’ with players they perceive are toxic or extremely negative. Vote-kick systems tend to give players an opt-out mechanism; however, they do not encourage cooperation.

In fact, in some scenarios vote-kick systems encourage premade groups to bully the strangers in the lobby into specific roles or champions. Given a scenario with 5 strangers, if 4 strangers happen to agree on roles and the 5th doesn’t, the 4 strangers are highly likely to collaborate to kick the 5th. Given a vote-kick system, we are likely to see more disagreements than before, and greatly increase the time it takes to get into a game.



WoW Dungeon Finder – type System


Allowing people to queue up for roles specifically would be the best approach, as long as it gives you the opportunity to play each role equally. Like it won’t look to drop you in a support slot unless the queue is over two minutes or something. Let a person specify what they’re best at and match them with those appropriate roles. One way of doing this is to put a label over the person’s name saying the role they got queued for – this creates a problem though because you might have people who like builds that don’t fit the meta, so by doing this you would be in fact committing Riot to the established meta at this point.


Thresh_Splash_Lanterndavin: The tricky part here is that unlike WoW’s Dungeon Finder, we don’t have a single way of playing the game. Dungeons in WoW are designed to pretty much fit the tank/dps/heal model.

So when you match people together, you’d need some way of pairing together players who have agreed on a particular strategy or want to play in a certain way. Otherwise you might end up with two people who queued as best-at-Mid, and unless they’re fine playing Double Mid, you’d get some pretty similar behaviors going on.


This system is plagued by long queue timers and will further enforce the current meta.


Let’s talk about these two points a little. From a queue time standpoint, a standard-meta queue actually wouldn’t be too lengthy. When you take into account the multiple ways of playing support (Tank/Support/Kill Lane) and the players who are fine to fill all roles, you actually have around 15 to 20% of players being down for Jungle and Support (depending region and definition of those roles). So queue time may actually be less of an issue than it’d seem based on the popular perception of those roles as less-favored.

There may be other reasons why players aren’t volunteering support in Ranked even though we know they are probably down for it. There’s the potential for “have to carry your team!” perceptions pushing people out of the role, or the feeling of not being able to strongly influence what’s happening, etc. As a support main, I’m not in agreement with those ideas, but I definitely recognize they’re out there

Regardless, the dungeon-finder approach relies upon the idea of forcing a single ranked-style meta. And even though a ton of players do play the bruiser-top, mage-mid, carry/support bottom, jungle layout, there’s successful strategies that rely on assassins mid, jungle-mages, carry/support top, etc. I think a decent amount of players wouldn’t be down with a queue that only allows for one team layout.


I don’t actually like the “WoW Dungeon Finder” solution. When I queue up for ranked, I normally don’t have a preference for what I play. If we need a top this particular game, I’ll play top with no problems. If the next game someone calls top, mid, and jungler, I’ll gladly play ADC and do just as fine as I did top lane. I don’t want to be forced into deciding what role I’m going to play before I even find a game.


Thresh_Splash_Lanterndavin: This is definitely something to be cognizant of with any solution that is role/lane/champ pre-call based. There’s a decently-sized chunk of players who are happy to do whatever the team needs. Reactive picking is also a core component of the game when it comes to Draft Pick.




The “Prisoner Island” System


The truth is, there are some people who like to play in a more toxic environment where verbal abuse is the norm. It might be useful for those people to play against eachother. However, it presents a few problems – do you have parallel ladders? What if you want to duo queue with a non-toxic player? And, despite that, there still is almost nobody who actively wants to team with trolls/AFKers/etc. Not even the ragers/flamers. So I’m not sure how this is terribly different than banning them.



SantaLyte: This is one of the first discussions I’ve had on Prisoner’s Island where a player talks about the complexities of the system and how it would work with things like Ranked–these are great points.



I agree with you, Prisoner’s Island has some unique concerns. Does it make sense to have a global Ranked ladder if you can game the ladder and who you play with by behaving a certain way? This is also why the idea of the matchmaker using “Ignore” or “Mute” information to never match you with certain players has red flags–these types of features provide subtle ways for players to abuse the matchmaker to create matches that are more favorable in a competitive environment liked Ranked queues.

It would be difficult to implement Prisoner’s Island for Ranked Queues. But, I also believe it would be a poor player experience for Normal Queues as well.


I don’t see the Prisoner Island thing working.

Destroying with destroyers is a very odd thing to me.


Thresh_Splash_Lanterndavin: We actually agree here. Players are rather in favor of this, probably because it’s a pretty intuitively appealing approach (“just put jerks with jerks and let them be jerks forever / change to get out!”). From research we’ve done we know that players think this is a good idea (close to 75% of players, actually!). Lyte can talk some about why from a behavior standpoint it might actually end up doing more harm than good.


The issue I have with the prisoner island is simply, how does a player whose stuck in a toxic queue ever reform? As I see it, the ragers will just cause people who could reform to rage as well, and continue the cycle until either those players quit, or they make a smurf account, and continue to expand upon the issue of toxicity at lower levels that lol already has.


SantaLyte: When discussing Prisoner’s Island, this is an extremely important point. Let’s consider a thought exercise:



1) Let’s put 1 toxic player with 9 positive players
– In this scenario, does the toxic player improve his behavior over time, or do we simply ruin the experiences of 9 positive players?

2) Let’s put 10 toxic players together
– In this scenario, do any of the toxic players ever improve their behavior?

A core philosophy on the player behavior team is to make features that help toxic players reform. In many ways, a Prisoner’s Island feature encourages the opposite of reform.

Prisoner’s Island also creates some pretty weird scenarios for players. When players browse through the Tribunal Ban Inquiries forum, there are numerous players who use excessive verbal abuse and racial slurs in their matches; however, they lack the self-awareness or necessary feedback to understand how negative their behavior is. If these same players are on Prisoner’s Island, how many of them would understand why they were there, or how to get out? If players don’t believe they deserve to be on Prisoner’s Island and every other player there is just a jerkwad, doesn’t this encourage them to make new accounts to start over, off Prisoner’s Island?

If this scenario happens, what was the point of creating Prisoner’s Island?



Why the hate in Champion Select?


GalioStatus Kwoh: I think that the fear and concern that players have around role and champ select stems from a very natural place of wanting to do their best and have the team do their best.



Let’s look at the typical situation. I drop into champ select with the firm knowledge of being awesome at my favorite role or champion but with zero knowledge of how good anyone else is at the other roles. If I have a known, high, level of confidence in my ability but zero knowledge of another player’s ability, how much confidence and trust do I have in them taking it over me?

That thought process is usually where this behavior stems from. This is why we need to find strong and healthy ways for the game to smooth these situations out.

How can we help people feel more confident and build trust with their teammates pre-game so that players don’t feel the pressure that can lead to negative outbursts? This is the sort of discussions Lyte and I have been having a lot here at the office.



Win Ratio to be seen by teammates


[sic]How about a visual representation of a good win ratio? For example if you scroll over a person’s name and they have a win % above 60% in a certain role, a message besides their name will appear like “Star Jungler” or something.  I don’t know exactly how you’ll determine what role they were playing but lolking does it pretty well so I’m sure you guys can figure out a pretty good system. This would make it so people who call roles they are actually good at are more likely to get them.

I believe if you’re a positive player you should be grouped with other such. I’m not a fan of the “prisoner island” concept, because what happens when you’re constantly surrounded by negative people? Making a haven for positive people creates a kind of reward system, where if you’re a good guy you’re more likely to play with other good guys, and thus you have incentive to be even better.
My last idea is expanding the first. It would be awesome to be able to click on an icon next to a Summoner’s name and see what their most played champs are. Like top 5. I’m not asking for win %’s because that can create a negative reaction, however, being able to see what a person plays most can give you an idea of what they’re good at.


SantaLyte: You raise a few interesting points. What’s more important to players? Their role (Tank! Support!), their champion (Ashe! Xerath!), or their position (Top! Mid!)?



Regarding showing the top 5 champions stat to players in Champ Select, we’re very intentional and deliberate when deciding what stats to show players. If we showed players the top 5 champions, doesn’t it create a perception that if the players are not playing one of their most experienced champions that the team is at a disadvantage?



But what about unortodox builds?


Thresh_Splash_Lanterndavin: Definitely an issue–if you’re doing role signalling (or any other kind of signalling, like just saying “I’ll support!” in chat and then picking revive/smite Yi and going bot), it forms a sort of informal contract with your team. It’d require different ways for players to resolve violations of that contract (e.g., reporting, kicking, etc.). Similarly, the way you’re playing may not meet the expectations of what “support” is. If it’s getting the job done (I’ve seen great Nid supports), are you actually violating that contract?



The art of balancing Queue Dodge penalties


SantaLyte: We’ve tested many different queue penalties in the history of League of Legends. If you don’t have any penalties at all, queue dodge rates skyrocket. Players leave for many diverse reasons:



– perhaps the team composition wasn’t optimal
– perhaps the opposing team composition was too strong
– perhaps they didn’t get their role
– perhaps they didn’t get their champion
– perhaps someone was being toxic
– perhaps someone was AFK
– perhaps the Captain didn’t do the drafting the way the team wanted
– perhaps a perceived OP champion was chosen by the enemy team
– perhaps a perceived UP champion was chosen by a teammate

What happens is you have more lobbies that end in a queue dodge than actually enter a game. However, when we introduced stronger penalties, queue dodge rates dropped by 50%. Changing and tweaking queue dodge penalties is an extremely tricky science. On one hand, we want players to be able to have an opt-out mechanism to get out of games that are definitely not going to be fun; however, if we have no penalties at all, the actual time it takes a player to hit “Play” and enter the game after several lobbies increases dramatically past 10 minutes. Micro-managing Champ Select lobbies really isn’t that fun, and we don’t want to encourage it.


You’ve won a game with X player


I don’t know how much this would help, but by prioritizing people you’ve won a game with and telling the player that they won a game with that other person, I feel that it would help. It would overall give players more trust in their teammates. Just a thought though I think it would work. Any feedback would be nice.


Thresh_Splash_Lanterndavin: There’s a bunch of ways you could use information about your friends or past people you’ve played with to do some cool stuff. It’s something we’ve brainstormed on in the past.





Templates for playstyle


You’d need to pick one or more templates and one or more roles within each template that you’re willing to play, and then the matchmaking queue would have to pick a template for the team and assign roles to each player according to what they were willing to play. Also, these preferences should be savable and nameable like mastery pages so that once you’ve set one up, you can reuse it infinitely.

In addition to eliminating conflicts over positioning in champ select, this would also address the problem of people disagreeing about conformance to “the meta”.


Thresh_Splash_Lanterndavin: This is pretty interesting. I suspect you’d want the system to automatically provide popular templates or the like in order to not create a giant burden on new players.




How real life affects your gameplay


Why does RL-context matter?
Just because someone has had a bad day should be no excuse for them to start raging at somebody.

If I have a bad day at work and come home and beat my wife would I get away with it just because I had a bad day? Hell no.

If someone comes into the game and is an arse they should be justly reported & warned.

SantaRL context isn’t an excuse for players to behave negatively or in a toxic way; however, RL context is an important variable that designers need to consider when designing a game because RL context can influence how players play the game.

The question is, “Is it possible to design a game feature that reduces the impact of RL context?”

What if everyone could ban champions?


On an unrelated side note but in the vein of improving player options, if you ever increase bans to 5 per team, would it be reasonable to give 1 ban to each player instead of having the “captain” have full control? That way they can ban the characters they dislike playing against or added communication allows the team to pick things as a whole, and people have a harder time arguing that the whole ban period was “wasted”.

This might just end up with “all the other bans but mine were stupid”, and more likely to screw over a teammate, I suppose, but it was a thought.


SantaLyte: Hm, this is a neat idea. I’d have to spend more time thinking it through, but this would diffuse responsibility instead of the entire team hinging heavily on how the Captain structures the draft. Because every team member has a voice in the draft, it might encourage players to feel more invested into their team composition.

Lots to consider with this idea.





Riot has acknowledged the need for change in Champion Select and the community proposals are many and varied. Considering how many factors must be taken into account: player anxiety, real life issues, toxic behaviour, queue-dodging, etc. The solution probably lies in the middle of all the ideas mentioned.

Vote Kicking is a strong mechanism against single negative summoners, but can easily be abused to bully people or force a queue dodge.

A WoW Dungeon-finder system will alleviate some of the issues players have with conflicting lane and role interests, but will further streamline the game into the current metagame.

“The Prisoner Island” System focuses on condemning toxic players to a queue of their own, though this will only exacerbate the problem with negative attitudes, as it will in no way improve community relationships.

It’s important that players aren’t being forced into making defined choices in champion select just for the sake of reducing toxicity during that time. Therefore, presenting Win/Loss Ratios, player templates or preferable roles will likely not see popularity within the development team. However, some sort of specialization should be considered, as League of Legends is, above all, a team game and if everyone knows their job then cooperation can be more easily achieved.

Champion Select is a complex system on its own. So how can we make positive communication more appealing? By emphasizing on the team’s goal! You’re all in this together, so no one should be above the other in terms of decision-making. Giving everyone the right to ban one champion, or presenting the player’s best role in a way that doesn’t force him/her into a particular lane or champion pick, will go a long way towards improving the game experience as a whole!


Hopefully we see the results of this thread grow into a satisfying system in the near future!

As always, I would like to urge you to take part in these discussions! Riot values your opinion, if written in a constructive manner.

  • Stephen

    WoW Dungeon Finder …

    I find this system will work.

    But i still find this isn’t adequate for the scope of league of legends

    In regards to changing the meta / meta break
    I find the only real meta changes are based on something that people can exploit normally resulting in nerfing / re balancing
    and with the new changes sugested for the supports and jungle in season 4 i see this meta will stick around for a little while further
    If this is something that will change it will be based on top level play rather then solo q

    So i can suggest a slightly different approach
    Now i base this on my veiws i dont have the data that riot has
    Firstly i think and straight out fixed approach wont work for many reasons

    also the current pick over calls isn’t also working as i find people are more negative when they dont get there role

    So what i suggest

    Currently we have “Accept” “Decline” before champ select

    Why not have a preffered role caller added
    you can get a queue pop and then select a role
    this selection can be changed during a time period and you can see the other 4 peoples choices
    yes 2 or more people can select the same role in the game but this then will be dice rolled for that position and the open positions
    i would think it fair that you can still decline the queue if un-happy with this team

    i do admit this might take some time maybe set it for 10-15 seconds

  • AnimNations

    Because some people (such as myself) already perfer playing the current meta’s style of supporting, I probably would not like supporting if it required me to cs along side an ADC while also taking care of him/her.@greekchallenger But i do like the “Dungeon Finder” queue. Players can select what role(s) (if you perfer to get into queue faster, and can play different roles) they want and get into a team who actually like what role they are playing as, I think this is perfect. In all honesty, I’d rather wait an extra 10 minutes in queue than 40 minutes with some kid bi*ching about forcefully playing support/jungle etc. I hope Riot gives it a thought!

  • EndStyle

    Plz do dungeon finder style, i know alot of people who like to play only supports or ad caries.
    They dont play others roles so good and they are not so confident on other lanes.

  • Mitch

    Why not just focus on trying to make all roles fun and desirable. I dont know many people that think playing a conventional 0cs support is fun. If certain roles were buffed/tweaked/reworked then maybe more people would be OK with playing every role. Again, I personally only see a problem in conventional supports like Sona and Nami. They CAN be fun, and some people do enjoy playing them, but they aren’t nearly as much fun as playing an assassin. I know there are a lot of people that also think supporting is boring, so why not just try to make the support role more desirable?

  • greekchallenger

    why dont do something before we play rank to select our role and when we choose player to pick the role and the player that we wont?

  • Moxdragon1

    Why not allow the person at the bottom to be able to ban. If at least they don’t get the position they want at least they could ban the champs they wouldn’t like to play against.

  • scattered89

    riot need to do somthing about dcers in a game or for the people with a dc in a game espically ranked

  • BadTiming

    Why not an optional dungeon-finder? Players who are OK committing to the meta and choosing a role based on that can use the system to find a team that suits them, and players who don’t conform to the meta can continue using the current system but avoid being matched with hard-line metagamers.

  • JVIage

    I’d like a forfit possibility. It often happens that when a game starts 1 or 2 people are disconnected. This gives me a early game disadvantage which will eventuelly result in a lost. However I have to waste 20 minutes to surrender. If RIOT gives the possibility to forfit the game within 2 minutes it’ll be more fun for players who don’t disconnect and want to play active.

  • EDC Jumanji

    The templates for playstyle is a great idea too me. I think it’s better than the WoW Dungeon-finder system.

  • Amber

    YES! This! This is what I’m talking about! Why aren’t they getting that out of all their research?!

  • Amber

    Okay you guys have the role select but it seems like it would be League’s meta, the assassin, ranged, tank, mage, etc. points that league has labeled each character with. The article seemed to describe a role select as something that would be picked based on the multiple (and often very very wrong) roles that LoL picked for the champions. It seemed like a role select would just be a player selecting Top, Mid, Jungle, Bot, Support, Any and then jumping into the queue like that instead of picking whether they wanted to be a mage or a carry or a whatever. The issue usually isn’t with what kind of champion has been picked but with the player’s role, so I’d like to be able to choose my role before I get thrown into a queue with a bunch of jerks who still think Ashe is a terrible ADC.


    u so single minded
    and you assume alot

    or mebe u just trollin :@
    “GET A TABLE!” – commercial

  • Redragale

    WoW Dungeon Finder concept – You choose the LANE you want before queuing which adds a tag to your name and groups you with 4 other people with different tags; “Solo Lane – Top”, “Solo Lane – Mid”, “Jungler”, “Duo Lane – Carry”, “Duo Lane – Support”. You’re not actually setting up a meta for players because no one is forced to their chosen lane/position. Your teams comp can change at any time if everyone agrees on something, just like it can now. We have Tribunal to deal with trolls that try to make matchmaking hell by tagging themselves a role they don’t actually want.
    With this system you’re not “making defined choices in champion select just for the sake of reducing toxicity” but rather, setting champion select up to avoid those toxicity issues in the first place.

  • Schutz

    Who the hell put Lyte and Davin as Riot employees? Not a single thing they have said is correct. They speak of statistics and resort to pulling statistics out of thin air “decent”, “decently-sized”, “75%”, “15-20%”, etc. etc. Nothing but bullshit. Also concerning Prisoner Island their logical assumption are false through and through. In 2) if you put 10 toxic players together, Lyte completely ignored the fact that there is a LARGE incentive to reform – that being of “release” from the Prisoner Island. Those 10 toxic players will have EVERY incentive to reform in order to “escape” that island. If you put 1 toxic player with 9 other non-toxic players then he WILL affect the 9 other players negatively, he will NOT be influenced by their “politeness”. In fact, he would take their politeness as fear of him and his aggression.

    As for the WoW Dungeon selection system, Davin spoke of it as if it keeps the meta in place and that a “decent” amount of players reject it, that is bullshit. By and by almost every single game is based on the meta with barely anyone trying to change that.

    I won’t bother with the rest. Riot employees seem to talk from a soapbox without knowing anything about anything and yet pull out shit from their ass and use it as facts and statistics.

  • Æ’enris

    I feel like the least of people’s worries are the fact that they are being forced in to a meta. You could always fix the system if it gets out of hand later. As a player that has been in silver for all of season 2 and most of season 3, I can tell you that, to be honest, being forced in to a meta is the least of my god damn worries.

  • Æ’enris

    How about we use the WoW dungeon finder system and have people be able to sign up for multiple roles at once and also add an “All Roles” option. The real problem with this game is that people don’t get what they wanted because other people are taking it. If people get what they want, chances are they will play better and have a better attitude. The other two systems are horrendous. Vote-Kick can be abused so hard and pairing ragers with ragers will never fix your community, it will only make it worse and people who rage once can get placed in to this and then never get out, then what do you say?

    Forcing players in to a meta isn’t that big of a deal. If someone wants to support Kha’zix, let them. You don’t have to restrict the other players to certain champs, just certain roles that THEY chose to be. This will result in less queue dodges and overall happy players. Riot plis don’t screw this up.

  • charles

    Omg they listened to me! I feel special . Bout time

  • flyingelf


    If people are going to troll, they’re going to do it anyway. If someone has the mindset of I’m going to make this game unpleasant for my team, they are just going to do it. Adding another way to do that wouldn’t change a thing.

    As for who would play pick order, that’s all I’d play. Some games you’re pick 1, some you’re 5. When you’re 5, you have to accept its because the rest of your team is rated as better than you and count on them to fill their roles well.

  • Michael

    Forgive my reply to myself, but there’s also another type that could be like an aram style. Just an all random summoner’s rift. I’m not sure how many people would play it though. But there’s a reason aram is popular.

  • Michael

    I like the dungeon finder type style, but not a single queue type. Some people are just fine with playing the meta, and others like to just play whatever. I’d like see multiple dungeon finders however. People tend to think that sticking to the meta is the only way to win as well, so this would set up anyone who picks something different to be the scapegoat if the team does poorly (and perhaps conversely the hero of the team if they do well).

    Here’s what I want to see.

    Upon getting to the queue options there are two selection options:

    Queue One: This queue’s description is to clear the air that this queue is indeed meant for top, mid, duo bot, and jungle players. A bad part of this of course is that you can only add so many different queue types, and metas change.

    Queue Two: This queue’s description is that… anything goes. It’s a blame free environment to play summoner’s rift in a way that is different, maybe even goofy or weird. Obviously the summoner’s code still stands, but putting 4 mid and one to defend top/bot can be a viable team (search GSG vs NLB in Winter Final on YouTube or something, granted it took a lot of planning).

    There’s no single fix, but I think there needs to be options.

  • Nick

    I completely agree with the ‘dungeon finder’ option. If players can choose the role they want to play and be matched up with 4 other players that want to play the other roles, there wont be ‘toxic’ players (atleast in champ select). the vote kick system to me doesnt seem like the right choice because what if multiple players want to play that tole and some of them just team up to kick the one player even though hes not being toxic? it doesn’t seem fair. In my opinion, the dungeon/team finder is the best choice.

  • xk

    Just make pick order supreme, increase the dodge penalties, and randomize the whole team as to pick order. Its random, non-biased, and doesn’t discourage communication.

  • Doug

    “But you know what?

    This player’s behavior isn’t toxic. He’s just like any one of us–we all have our bad days.”

    This was a great point until the last few words. “Having a bad day” isn’t the reason the player isn’t toxic. The player isn’t toxic because you can’t expect normal people to simply sit there taking abuse from other toxic players.

    Destiny has been banned several times just for responding to people who were clearly trolling him. The judges of the tribunal case never do (and simply don’t have the resources to do) proper research, so all they see is anger in the in-game chat and hit punish. No consideration of the lobby chat, no consideration of the events in the game, etc.

  • PinQuP

    Following system might just work and is related to the mentioned “presenting the player’s best role in a way that doesn’t force him/her into a particular lane or champion pick”:

    Visually show (for example by hovering over the player’s picture in champion select) how well he performs in each role or lane. All champions in League of Legends already have their own roles (called “attributes”). So by visually showing the player’s performance (win % or Kill/death/assist ratio) in each “attribute” will enhance champion select.

    To accomplish an “attribute” related graph system. You might want to reduce the amounts of “attributes’ or create new ones. For example the attribute “stealth” is not very informative for champion selection.

    This system will enhance champion selection without enforcing a players to play his best role. The system can also be diversified between normal and ranked queue’s. I would assume the system would be more mandatory in ranked queue than in normal. If a player wants to learn or practice a new role, he should think about doing so in normal queue.

    Thank you for reading this feedback.

  • jonnyb

    Why dont you do the wow thing where you can pick your roll (top, jungle, mid, adc, support) and then add “any” or random that way the people that dont care what lane they play will have faster queues. and have the lane displayed so they dont troll their way into a faster queue and still get whatever lane they wanted.

  • Failtasia

    They already explain why they dont want to do that. It streamlines the meta into forcing people to play top mid support adc and jungle instead of leaving builds like top mid bot in solo lanes, a roaming character and jungler or playing 2 duo lanes and no jungler

  • Zack

    What would you do for trolls that click “Call Order” when they really believe in “Pick Order”. they then enter a queue with people who want to go by “Call Order” and the troll is just doing exactly what they were doing before. Would anyone even choose “Pick Order?”

  • Dublbarrel

    I don’t see why a rather loose dungeon finder system wouldnt work. By loose, I mean you only need the 5 lane positions ‘Top, mid, adc, support, jungle’ If five players get into a lobby, and all 5 roles are sort of ‘set’ already, it gives more time for the team to discuss comp, trading picks, strategy, etc. rather than ‘Im mid, no Im mid Im first pick’. As for this setting a meta: with as loose as you could make this system, it wouldn’t establish a meta any more than the players that have already established one. this system would simply define that there would be one person top, one in mid, two bot and one in jungle. if the two bot decide they wanted to go double bruiser kill lane, the rest of the team would have to trust them just as they would in any other ranked game now

  • flyingelf

    Why not just add an option when queuing up, do you believe in pick order or call order? If its really split. Seems like that souls solve 90% of the arguments i see.

  • Dramen

    I’m glad that they’re discussing problems like this, but I don’t understand why they discard ideas just because they think it won’t work. They seem to think that if a vote-kick system was implemented then it would cause all these problems and don’t even try it. What would be the harm in implementing it and if it doesn’t work they just take it out after a week or two. Right now they just say, “It won’t work, we won’t try it.” Vote-kick systems work in a lot of other games like WoW. Riot’s refusal to attempt similar systems would be like Blizzard saying they wouldn’t implement vote-kick systems in WoW because people would abuse it to kick players before bosses to control loot, which almost never happens.

  • Blanq

    with the whole “team champion banning” idea, you can still make it 3 bans per team because the teams are selected in 3 stages. therefore, you have blue side with the first pick, second/third pair, fourth/last pair banning a champ; purple side with the first/second pair, third/fourth pair, and last pick banning a champ. yes, this would still leave 2 individuals with more banning power than the other 8, but i think its still better than leaving it all up to the first person on each team.

    as for how the pairs pick a champ to ban, its rather simple. give them the 30 seconds, and they both have to talk and agree on a champion. once they both lock their ban, the champion gets banned. if they dont agree, either you waste the ban or randomly select one of the player’s champions. this works for AFKs or stubborn people as well because if its either darius or no champ, it bans darius.

  • Chefo

    I’d say that, judging by the comments, you guys are generally in favor of the Dungeon – Finder system. It certainly sounds like it would be the least pressuring decision, as it doesn’t add additional punishments. Also, to the point I mentioned in the summary, it emphasizes on working as a team. Less arguments and more strategy talk – a win – win scenario.

    Perhaps choosing your lane in such a system would be most reasonable. If you start pushing players into specific roles, then you are enforcing stale gameplay. Though the meta hasn’t really progressed much over the years, there certainly are deviations in both casual and competitive games.

    A major part of the community demands change and Riot delivers – that seems to be their pattern. Won’t they benefit from, say, a pole thread, complete with proper advertising on the launcher and on the site ? (could be something else, this just serves as an example) Most players rarely get to voice their opinion to Rioters and that’s wasting valuable feedback.

    Remember that you always have a voice in tailoring the game’s future! Thank you for keeping the conversation civil :)

  • http://Solomid.net Hayden Nichols

    I feel that the dungeon finder idea is the best by far. I don’t think you guys’ argument about it being ‘too meta-based’ is strong enough to completely throw the idea away. Summoners can still get creative with their playstyle and build certain ways with this specific search criteria. Just because you searched as “Top” doesn’t mean you have to play Jax or Irelia because that’s “the meta”. You still have the option to play Gragas top lane if you want. Also, if someone doesn’t have an idea on what role they want to play and still want to play ranked, but feel that their freedom of “filling in a position” or “randomly choosing” their role is stripped from them, than they should simply make up their mind before they search for a game. Throwing this idea away over something extremely minor and unimportant like that is absurd IMO. And to lessen the queue times for everyone, we could decrease the amount of roles to search from 5 to 3 by combining Jungle/Support and Mid/Ad Carry into a single category. This would give you 3 search options; Top, Jung/Supp, and Carries. This also gives the indecisive people a broader search option. I hope this helps.

  • AladinPaladin

    i think that voice chat will bring the factor of reality and how “real” the players are and everyone will just hit the ground and not rage,because like this we have a lot of keyboard warriors who just want to troll and that’s it.Players with lower audio quality will still use the chat,and if some1 yells on the mic we can just mute them from the voice chat,2 mute buttons, 1 for chat 1 for voice chat.If he still rages at the chat mute him again…just an idea which i think you guys knew a long time ago and voice chat is hard to make?

  • Jaaade

    Lyte… one thing… YOU SUCK

  • Scott Azrael

    I agree with the idea to order your preference for roles and allow that to show. The star junlger idea is another good idea that might be able to be implemented on top of that. Having a order of preference for lanes would be a good idea. Also, it wouldn’t necessarily force the meta on anyone, just the idea of the roles. You could till run a kill lane bot if the adc and support agree or have your top run solo bot and the adc and support run top. It happens all the time in pro matches because they communicate. The main thing though is that you need a way to opt out when you have things like “Mid or feed” that are counter productive to team communication and cooperation.

    Also, I think the idea of disabling chat until after character select is a horrible idea. The idea is to encourage communication and cooperation, not eliminate it. I know several games in normals I wouldn’t have won had I not communicated with my team and switched from my initial champ to fill in a role that no one wanted like adc or mid.

  • cesar

    I think the “Dungeon Finder” idea is the best and it can totallly work. Its like yes it will “Kindda” implementing a meta but once u get into champion select and get ur role nothing makes you play that role, you can pick whatever champion you want, if you get support nothing stops you from going top/jun…. so yeah this idea would help a lot in chapion select for obvious reasons… and for what people say that the major problem of this idea is that it implements a meta but like i explained before i think things would be almost the same just at begining wouldnt be people crying for their roles and we would avoid sooo many discusions in chmp select.

  • m1k

    A wow-queue system would be amazing. Sure you sacrifice non-meta builds, but only in games with random public people. I think that’s totally worth it. Champ select is such an unpleasant experience.

  • Chronix666

    when you go into the lobby you should be random put in spots that have assigned positions like first pick would be the support spot while second and third would be adc and jungle

  • Archetype

    Well, prisoner island is a good idea if you take away the reform section. Solution : “You’ve been judged by tribunal as a toxic player with 12 reports in 5 games. Sentened to 10 games in prisoner island”. And the next 10 games will grant neither mmr changes nor ip ones. Just force them to play their next 10 rankeds with people like their own to udnerstand the impact of their behavior without suspending them. For each successive sentence the games will be getting a +2. So if someone is stuck in prisoner’s island forever, i guess they’re not willing to change at all. And dungeon finder is generally a bad idea :/

  • Cedoom

    you shouldnt be able to instalock.. wait atleast 10 secs before u can lock in ur choice

  • zui0

    I think to create a bit more overview in Champion Selection i would give every player a button to select a role they preferably play (possibly more positions) and show them somewhere. With this things like “call order” would be weakened and (maybe) players can make more agreements.

    I’m sorry that i couldn’t express my idea that well because i’m no native english speaker.

  • Isaac Earl

    Here is an idea. What if Toxic players were punished with decreased IP/experience etc. Make it impossible to purchase skins with IP or champions etc. Or maybe if they were toxic as a certain champion. Suspend that champion for them so they can’t play it anymore until they start to positively influence games. Just another random idea…

    Another idea to augment the “prisoner’s island” concept: Make it so toxic players get temporarily banned from ranked, and can only play Prisoner’s Island Normal queues, where they play with other toxic players. You can go further and make it so they can’t use chat if you wish. Just make it clear that if they don’t show toxic behavior they can get back to the regular queues. You can go deaper with this and add a bit of public shame if you wish.. people on their friends list can’t invite them to game because they see a “Prisoner’s Island” icon on their friend’s list.

  • Lawliet

    First, let me start of with a *sigh*. Now, I want to be short but effective. ALL of these ideas are GREAT! “Why, kind Sir, why, what makes you say that, are you a bafoon?” On the contraire, my friend, all of these systems are based on a paradox of a ‘perfect human being’.
    “What, now you’re just making stuff up.” Oh, do bear with me for another second. These systems would work perfectly if behaviour of human beings could be predicted or perfect to that point that a ‘system’, in it’s full word, wouldn’t be needed. So, since I wasn’t that short, let me tell you (for what it’s worth), the current system WORKS, games are played, games are won, lost, people rage, people have fun, people get along, everything is an option, don’t be afraid to queue because you just MIGHT get stuck with a feeder, flamer, ‘toxic player’ (hate the phrase btw), just play the game and confess that you are playing with human beings with their own imperfections and ‘bad days’.

  • Guest

    O mal corta-se pela raíz.

  • HugoMundo

    I like the dungeon finder queue but i still wanna play AP MF mid, Annie jungle and others without having to be stuck by some specific role imposed by the meta game.

  • Rahf

    Language filters, please, if Russian players are going to continue playing in NA whom can’t speak English can we please at least get a quick language filter? It would help any South American players that also drop into NA to find other players that speak their language(s) natively and I could definitely see it being an improvement on EU seeing as there’s quite a diverse set of languages being used there.

  • Risuuu

    Yea we all fail once in a while, some less, some more. But yeah if u dont know the person the angrier you would get at him if he fails or if he blames you. I’ve had 2 games in my lifetime where i was chatting with my teammates (through teamseapk) and there was full team. We did bad early game but none of use blamed, raged or insulted anyone. Late game our communication through teamspeak led us to victory. Long story short. Make in-game chat

  • Prostagmah


    This would never be implimented. It takes complete control away from the person, and why would we want to play a game limited like that? And it wouldn’t stop troll picks since you can’t define roles eg Lulu can be played in any lane to a degree.

  • eM costinha

    Hi I really like your ideas, that you are considering to put in the new lol system.

    However i think you must consider, the idea of “counter-strike” (only know this game, that does this) a teamspeak system integrated in the game.

    This will improve team-fights strategies, strategies it self, will reduce time of the player writing, to their team mates, etc….

    If you dont want to hear certain people because he is raging, have an annoying voice, etc. You have the option to mute that person…

    Im not english, sorry if their is someting not well written.

    Good game :)

  • Ketsu Bloodhawk

    Hi all, here are my ideas summarized in a thread on EUwest forum:


  • LxB NiKoY

    good one !

  • Atre

    i think u guys should force roles into ppl… first game u get to play top, second game u get to play jungle, third game support, and so on, then repeat.

  • Rob

    Some people seem to be missing the point to a ‘dungeon finder’ style system. It does force the standard 5 ‘roles’ on the team (support, jungle, mid, carry, top lane), but it doesn’t in any way force restrictions on what champions you can play in that role. Want to play an assassin mid? If you’ve queued as mid then do it. Want to play a ‘different’ carry? Then do so if you queued as carry. Having a system that queues you by role in no way then restricts how you play that role.

    Want to swap the solo player to bottom and carry/support to top? You can still do it. You’ve as much chance of pre-arranged role assignments agreeing to this as you have of people in a random queue agreeing to it.

    Whilst it does define these roles, it doesn’t define how they’re played.

    Please also remember that ‘AP Mid’ and ‘ADC’ are player defined roles, not the game. The actual definition of these positions is simply Mid and Carry. There’s no-one forcing you to play an AP mid, or to play an AD carry, just simply that your position in the line-up will be as a Mid or Carry.

    People need to stop and think – this could be made quite generic with regards to roles, and then people still have all the flexibility they have now.

  • Rob


    “I guarantee a hefty chunk of the player-base would too.”

    I find comments like this hilarious and at the same time completely unhelpful. You argued your point quite well, and I actually thought it was a rather good point. However you then negated any influence you’d had by making a stupid exaggeration at the end. How many LoL players do you know? Then consider how many millions play. However many you know, even if they’d all quit, are such a tiny percentage they can not be used as a representation of the whole.

    Really, stick to making your point and people may read it and take it seriously. Adding stupid comments to the end does nothing than demean the whole post, which is a shame as it a completely valid point.

  • Zerorat

    I don’t see what the problem with a Vote-Kick system is, provided that it’s not implemented in Normal games. I can only 5v5 or duo queue in ranked. In the former, there is no issue regarding needing to kick. In the latter, not only does the duo not have a majority, but there is NO way to line up with other premade duos. Make it require 3 or 4 votes, and the problem is solved. I can’t count the number of toxic ass haters that this would have relegated to waiting for another queue to try and spam their hate onto. In normal, WHO CARES? Just take the dodge, there is no penalty outside of a time constraint. Vote-Kick for ranked 100%.

  • Itazurakozou

    Problem, Nami as ADC (or many other supports) work very well… Would you kick this person just for having a non-meta play style? How about duo top? your list negates that possibility… Both viable play styles and both are cut out by your system… Hell I’ve even seen duo jungle work pretty well. @DiEMOnd

  • Moshruum

    I kind of like the dungeon find system. And the argument “Well i like to play everything!?”, well there’s a simple sulution (ofcourse depending on how the system will work), you fill in all the roles. If the system is a “prefer what lane to 1-5 (top, mid, jungle, support, adc) You simply put a “1” in all the roles. And if someone mains for example top and mid, but doesnt care which, they put a “1” in top and mid, and a 3,4,5 in the others. This is my basic idea of it, and will not work practically, but I hope it may have given some ideas to the people behind this.

  • eLz

    The WoW system would work pretty well I feel. Why not just make it an alternative to regular rank queue ups. You could have the choice of queuing for ranked the way it is now, or queue for a specific role. There could be a disclaimer saying it could potentially take longer for you to find a game picking a specific role. I myself would love to wait an extra 5 or 10 minutes if I was guaranteed the position I want. I do not care for support or jungle role, so when I am forced to play them, the game is not fun for me and I usually don’t play as well as I could . I feel like I get punished for being a 3rd or 4th pick sometimes just because I’m stuck with what no one else wants.

  • tronix

    I have to agree with one of the below posters, I believe the WoW system could be very beneficial in regards to team symmetry, especially if this type of system is put into RANKED play to begin with. From what I see and understand and participate in almost every day in ranked is people want to play the current meta, thats what they are use too and see the pro’s do etc, the only difference to the current meta, is a lane swap by top and bot (adc/supp) which can still easily be done once the match has started. Majority of people (like stated below) dont like to stray too far from the current meta in ranked anyways, the risk never really reaps the reward, and normally winds up with you getting reported and ignored by at least 4 people.

    I would suggest putting the Dungeon Queue finder in for Ranked SoloQ (where majority of the madness happens) to help eleviate some of the stresses, because this just limits where a certain person is stationed, it doesnt limit what champion they can pick or not pick, leaving the meta still open too some slight changes, and in doing so, during the last 30 second time frame were given after all champs have been selected there can even be a team vote put forth on whether were happy with the setup of our team, if so game goes further, and if not u look at factors, if 3 or more champs are chosen and disliked the lobby disbands and regroups, if one champ is disliked out of 4, that person is removed and replaced, this is after all a team game, and were all in this together.

    this is getting to be “TL;DR” so i’ll end it here for now.

  • Qhrille

    You got the WoW dungeon finder idea all wrong. The whole idea is to not get matched up with another mid/top/jungler/ad/support player. You will be the only one in that lobby who queued up as mid/top/jungle/ad/support player.

  • mike

    Wow dungeon finder is completely possible. You just need individual meta ques. solo top ap mid adc/sup and duo top, mid, duo bruiser, and solo top, ap mid, adc, tank etc, then under that category click the role you would like. after a nice 10 minute que timer you’re good. Oh in order for this to work it would also need to grey out champs that you didn’t commit to or ppl would troll.

  • Will i am

    I think that the wow queue thing would solve a lot of problems! I´m playing low silver league and i don´t see the point of getting the game stuck in the current meta because down in ELO Hell there is no game innovation there is just arguing. I think that it would be the best System for the lower leagues. I think from the perception of a seasoned wow player this game solved a lot of Problems and could solve here too! The queues went down in wow so much since the queing thing was implemented and i think that this queue times would decrease over time in lol too.

    my 2 cent

  • Rezic


    They should add a 20-30 sec extra timer in the beginning of champ select where you get to set preferred roles, like you said. This way noone can call “MID OR AFK” before you ^^

  • shaatom

    i like the dungeon systeme but their will be a problem cause not many players like to play support and junlger. the dungeon system in WoW has this thing that gives the class that is under seleced like supports a extra bonus so people will take the support class more often. if you don’t encourage people to play every role you going to have long Q-times and this won’t benifit the game.

  • Patric

    Ok, Here’s the problem… THERE IS NO META, There SHOULD NOT BE A META… I like to 1v2 Bot lane sometimes. Depending on matches, I want to put an ADC top, or an APC top… sometimes, I may even want to put Lulu mid with the AP cause there’s synergy with her Ability Power boost… You are making the game less creative and more stale but putting in the WoW Dungeon Finder style of play. I for one will quit LoL as soon as the tried to force a ‘meta’ on us and I guarantee a hefty chunk of the player-base would too.

  • Rezic

    I absolutely love the Wow Dungeon Finder solution! Make it happen!

  • Krios Redeem EU

    They can’t do a Dungeon Finder system because it forces a meta onto players. “Oh you want to run double bruiser bot lane? Well that’s too bad, the meta is AD + Support bot, deal with it.” This is exactly the reason why they won’t do this. They want to leave the game open for new ideas and creative setups, not force a standard composition on people.

    Don’t get me wrong, i’d love to see this work, but the nature of the game just doesn’t allow for it. Unless they come up with something really ingenious perhaps…

  • danny

    go away from the role thinking. like 60% jungler win rate etc. show the winrate with every single hero in some way. because as time goes by some heroes might become ap carrys which have been support champs or the other way around. you cant come up with a system that represents the current meta. because that would take away the flexability of the game and the possibility to invent new strategies etc. if you show every champs winrate then people can see what they want no mather how the meta changes or in what direction the game developes.

  • DiEMOnd

    We can simply take the WoW finder System and turn it like this: Each player can order his preference for his best roles! For e.g.
    1st Jungle
    2nd Mid
    3rd Support
    4th Top
    5th ADC.
    This way the waiting time will be the same as it currently is. After finding a team, the game can actually tell what role each player was picked for. There will be no restrictions to what champions you can pick, but if you trollpick (take another role that what you were giving by the game) here comes the kick system. It’s so easy to make it, looking forward to it

  • Kobbe

    I think the dungeon finder system could work very well.
    So when people que up they can make like a priority list, where they can choose between 2 and 5 roles, so it will be easy and quick to get matched up with other summoners, while getting to play one of your favourite roles. By this system all the toxic enviorement like “Mid or Feed”, “ONLY TOP” etc. would dissapear.

  • Pedro

    That’s a really interesting subject and I put a lot of thoughts in this.

    1st of all, I think there are many summoners that want actually to play the current meta, and honestly I don’t like people that go ranked to try something new. Usually I always loose those games. So maybe splitting the queues would be a solution, with meta queue and non meta queue.

    Speaking about the “meta queue” (because I’m not really in to the other one :D), I think the calls for positions are the main concern.

    So I’d say that people could be on or off the chatroom so that they don’t actually need to communicate with other players. I’m like 2nd pick on ranked and just not to avoid problems I call my positions! That’s stupid, I shouldn’t be forced to do that!

    In this way, the 1st position in the champ select would select where he wants to play, after he locks in his position, it’s time for the 2nd pick, (…) and so on. after they’re finished with the roles, the chatroom can open so they can talk about strategies. and the choosing roles system in the meta queue will only allow them to play a group of champions, for example, support, would be like sona, soraka, taric, lulu, zyra, nunu, and maybe others not so mainstream. This list could be permanently updated, according to the new trends that we can see on eSports, like including recently Nasus in the jungle role.

  • Z Martin

    Also, why would he say that “double-mid” would be a possibility…. the system should be designed so that only one of each role is selected for a team. It shouldn’t be “tank, support, dps” available as options, but instead “top, mid, jungle, adc, support, and fill-in (for the adventurous who like playing random roles)”. I see that “unorthodox” teams might have a problem forming, but the queu system shouldn’t restrict what champions you should pick, so trolls/unorthodox teams can still occur. All the system would do is make it more possible to have an entirely cooperative team who each desire one role.

  • Nag3tti

    Dat “dungeon finder” would be great, you can go to Q and select role as solotop, mid jungler etc. that kind of Q sounds awesome.
    maybe it makes que time longer but it’s worth when u can do that role you want.

  • Z Martin

    I don’t see why they don’t implement a WoW- Dungeon finder option, with an additional “up for any role” option, that will fill for people automatically…if people complain about being forced into choosing a role before hand, and would rather fill. -_-

  • Sokris415

    Why not allow people to vote the people they play with? If you say give someone a 5 out of 5 and they rate you highly also the game can try to match you together if you queue at the same time and also avoid putting you into a team with those who you’ve rated low?

    Would also allow riot to see what players are consistently getting a low rating and let them investigate as to why that is.

  • Darinnis

    I like the idea of the “Dungeon finder” approach. The way I thought it could work would be you select the roles you are willing to play (Top, Mid, Jungle, ADC, Support) And then inside of the roles such as top, mid and jungle you select if you are willing to play AP or AD. I think the dungeon finder-esque system would only be necessary for ranked and draft though.