Overall the juggernauts have definitely been too strong (our bad). Making comparatively immobile melee effective is something we’ve had trouble with in the past, which in retrospect’s lead to us putting too much power into this group. We have been seeing some distinctive play generated by each of the reworks though, which hits on one of our primary goals for this work of making different characters have distinctly different effects on the game. Fairly optimistic we’ll see that continue once we’ve got balance into the correct spot, though won’t count those chickens before they hatch of course. What we’re thinking for patch 5.18 below, with a few longer term thoughts mixed in.
Garen did turn out to be too strong as initially suspected. The mobility nerfs in 5.17 have helped with that, we still feel he’s a bit strong at present though. Next major change we’ll be doing in 5.18 is making it so that people no longer generate Villainy stacks by killing Garen himself. Biggest impact there is that you won’t get punished for killing Garen in lane, which in some match ups makes it really hard to get a real advantage in lane against him (or even turns what should be a winning action into a losing action).
Went from significantly weak to too strong with the hotfix and buff in 5.17. We’re nerfing him in 5.18 as a result, giving Q a scaling mana cost and reducing the amount he heals per target hit by Q (with an increase to the max possible healing). Goal there is to nerf his healing overall, in lane in particular, while allowing some big moments still if he can catch 3 enemy champions with the blade. Longer term we’ve also been talking about whether straight % missing health is the correct model or not for Darius’ heal, given how much a tanky Darius can heal for. It’s possible we’ll shift towards a flat + missing% model instead at some point, still discussing/waiting to see how the 5.18 nerfs impact him.
We were pretty happy with how the hotfix hit Skarner, since it dropped his power substantially without going too far and leaving him too weak. He’s still too strong, so we’ll be following up on him as well in 5.18, with a nerf to his E slow, reducing the power of his ganks in particular.
Now that the dust’s settled somewhat it’s pretty clear Morde’s significantly overpowered as a farming duo laner, and very weak as a solo laner. We’ll be nerfing Morde’s base Armor, W healing and W damage (no longer deals double damage when overlapping, base damage increased somewhat). For solo Morde W’s going to be self castable for the healing effect (though not the damage). Expectation is that we’ll need to do more to Morde in follow up patches as well, though as usual we’ll see what effect those changes have first.
Bonus items section: So far Deadman’s Plate, Titanic Hydra and Sterak’s Gage are looking pretty reasonable. They’re doing the right sort of things on the right sort of champions.Â No current changes planned for them as a result, though we’re still keeping a clear eye on them of course as builds continue to get tested and refined.
Finally it’s also worth noting that since 5.18 is the patch World’s will be played on we’ve been putting a lot of focus into how the juggernauts are performing in professional play (since balance tends to be somewhat different between normal games and organized 5s, high skill level 5s especially). The recent LPL games have been played on 5.16 with the hotfix, which has been a useful data point for us in assessing juggernaut power. We’ve seen Darius and Skarner picked there (Skarner much more than Darius), both looking strong, though not overwhelming so. No sign of Garen isn’t surprising (the nature of his kit’s a better match for solo queue). No Morde picks or bans is a harder one to interpret. It’s possible his weaknesses are such that an organized team can just shut him down, or that he’s new enough teams haven’t had enough time to drill into his changes yet, so aren’t interested in picking him for now even if he’s theoretically strong (I’m personally in this camp, though definitely not 100% certain about it).
We wanted to try an item that really clearly telegraphed your intent to counter jungle a lot, with power loaded into the action of counter jungling specifically (as opposed to an item that’s good for counterjungling, but also has other uses, like boots). Conclusion at this point is that that’s too narrow a space for an item, given its tendency to lead to one jungler or the other failing really hard early. We want early actions to matter, but not to effectively decide games, and Poacher’s risks games snowballing too hard too fast for one team or the other.
None as clear cut as Poacher’s. We’re experimenting with a lot of stuff at present, it’ll be a while though before most of that’s solid enough to talk about usefully though.
One thing I will mention, since I’ve seen it requested a lot, is that we’re looking at a reworked version of Executioner’s Calling (AD Grevious Wounds item). Way too early to make any promises it’ll necessarily be coming back, it is one of the things we’re looking into though.
Current thinking is that Grevious Wounds serves a useful function keeping healing/regen in check, but that we may not have been offering it in the right ways. For starters the % may not be right, – 50% is such a larger difference that characters with strong healing end up being really feast or famine depending on whether they’re facing GW or not. Shifting to a lower %, and reducing healing/regen amounts somewhat, might be more appropriate.
As far as GW on individual champions goes we’ve stripped it off a number of champions because of the amount if felt like some match ups were decided in champion select. We’re still talking though about whether there are some good spots for GW on champion kits (e.g. is the problem regular application of GW in lane, rather than GW on kits in general).
Yeah, Azir’s learning curve’s extremely steep (hardest in the game last I checked). Having a long learning curve for a champion has a lot of value, it means there’s almost always something you can learn and improve at. In Azir’s case though his curve’s both very long and, during your initial games, really steep. That means there’s a really punishing period to get through before you can start playing him reasonably well, given we need to balance for players who know what they’re doing on him. Ways to make him a bit more accessible, without removing depth, would be really valuable as a result. We’ve been considering doing that at some point later this year already, thoughts extremely welcomed on things to look at.
We’ll fix clones not getting the Villain marker in the next patch, it’s not intended that that gives Garen’s team a constant way to tell clones and champions apart.
The Devourer wolf does stealth when Shaco stealths. If there are certain circumstances that’s not happening in let us know and we’ll get them fixed.
Finally as far as Shaco boxes go I’d be really hesitant to mess with their health model without doing significant other work to Shaco, given that’s going to impact his jungle clearing in particular. Definitely a thought worth noting in case we do a Shaco rework at some point though (nothing currently planned, there is some stuff it would be good to improve however).
Kalista was 525 for a decent period during her development. Feedback was very negative to this at the time, though feedback tends to be negative toward mechanics that reduce the player’s margin for error during this phase, as most players are unfamiliar with the champion. Perhaps at some point we will revisit the issue. Certainly a few things about the champion would need to change to compensate for the range loss.
We do think Talon could do with a bit of work at some point, aimed at making him more distinct from other assassins and improving counterplay available for some enemies. Overall though there are quite a lot of other characters that need the work more, so he’s not a rework priority.
The Yorick rework Xelnath was experimenting with did get ice boxed. We do plan to do a full rework (Sion/Poppy level) for Yorick still at some point, at the very least that won’t be happening this year though. Yorick’s got some major issues, Poppy, and likely Taric, are ahead of him in the full relaunch queue at a minimum though.
In terms of class we do think juggernaut would be a good fit. Given his minion summoning theme the direction we’re most likely to go is a juggernaut with strong pushing power (split push, counter push, tower sieger or some combination of the above).
I don’t know for certain if she’s crying or not, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case. PROJECT isn’t (despite Leona’s presence) all sunshine and smiles. It’d be nice to hear more about that world.
I think they’re still on for releasing them on 9/8, right? Not too long now.
In that list you’ll find little treats for Vi/Caitlyn vs. Jinx, Leona vs. sunglasses, pirates vs. ninjas, etc. These are super subtle things that might add 1g or -1hp or something of that scale – nothing particularly game-breaking for the most part. I don’t know what the development cost is for making (and more importantly – maintaining) these things are, so I can’t speak to if they are easy to add, or more trouble than they’ve been worth. I see that they removed the item for Rengar (in the Kha’Zix/Rengar quest) and turned it into a passive stacking buff instead.
I agree with TurquoiseYoshi and ChromaticEagle that 200g is a hefty chunk of change that could change the course of a game, if it came at the right moment. The number of times I’ve been short even 50g to get my next item I can hardly count!
I think the kind of effort that’s going into these things is usually channeled into the taunt quotes (which have been pretty extensive, recently, I thought).
What I wouldn’t want to see is more reasons for players to fight for results that don’t align with the rest of their team. You sometimes see this in events – if you’ve got half your team wanting to kill more turrets, and another team wants to win fast, then you get players who are misaligned in their goals, and that can lead to intra-team conflict. Maybe you argue that 200g isn’t enough to create that sort of conflict – but I’ve seen how even in normal games, an upset player can begrudge a jungler some CS, or a player in a vs. bots game might be disappointed that they didn’t practice a baron kill before ending the game. I could only imagine the anger some players would display if they were playing Lucian and the jungler killed the enemy Thresh. Or how annoyed the rest of the team might get if Lucian, determined to get that gold, took a risk that they maybe shouldn’t have done. 🙁
I could see something like these things turn up as hidden passives in the future (if it’s not a maintenance nightmare – I don’t know) or as something that could turn up in a future event, or more likely be something we see a lot of in taunts between champs.
I like them too – especially as they’re opt in, and everyone has an understanding of the expectation for the mode.
There have been times (like when different people were on different stages of the recent Bilgewater event) when it could get a little confusing, but again – as long as it’s opt in, I think the positives outweigh the negatives. (Though if I can suggest ways to improve them even more, I’m not going to hold back 😉
This discussion is in reference to yesterday’s massive patch, which you can check out HERE.
Wanted to link a bunch of discussions going on on the PBE boards at the moment regarding the various changes in the 5.16 patch, given threads on the PBE boards tend to have lower visibility than stuff here. Lot more change than the average patch going on, with some stuff that looks pretty weird, overpowered or over-nerfed at least at first read. Lot of details in the threads below that hopefully offer some context on what we’re thinking and what we believe the impact of some of these changes will be.
These threads are on the PBE forums specifically to gather feedback from people that are testing/will test the changes in game. Very interested in feedback from other people as well though of course, and currently reading a lot of it both here and on various 3rd party sites. As usual these are PBE changes and therefore subject to change as we polish kits, balance numbers, fix bugs etc. There are also some changes that are much more, or less, impactful in game than they may appear at a glance on paper (e.g. Morde gaining a bit of extra attack range).
We’re putting a lot of stuff in 5.16 for a few reasons:
These are changes that have been developed together that tie in with each other. The state of Morde, Garen etc is going to be highly impacted by the items available to them. Releasing champ changes and items separately means having to wait longer to get a true read on how they interact with each other.
After 5.16 we want to start focusing on balance and stability as we prepare for the patch Worlds will be played on (most likely 5.18). Putting all the disruption into one patch, and then taking a couple to balance it, gives us more time to catch issues than spreading it out over 3 patches and then not having any reaction time to issues that emerge in the third patch.
We feel we’ve been a bit too conservative in the past in the run up to Worlds. Worlds should involve a stable patch, that teams can focus on, ideally with any massive balance outliers. That’s not to say it should reflect a game state that’s been unchanged for so long it’s starting to feel stale though. It’s about two months until Worlds right now, which we feel’s a good time to introduce some change before, as above, shifting gears to balance/polish.
We have roughly 2 1/2 months of lead up to worlds and so at least 2 full patches to respond to any massive directional imbalances.
As for how massive this is – while there are a lot of items on the changelist itself – it’s mostly small tuning steps with one or two exceptions. Similar to how AP itemization goes – while there is a lot of holistic polish across the board – the net overall change should be moderate – at least for these core passes.
While I understand that’s not a super satisfying answer – I believe this is the last major update of the year in which a lot of things are happening and thus these item changes are meant to be a polish and tuning step to support a somewhat better ecosystem for those changes to live in.
Sorry if I don’t respond immediately. I occasionally comment and then go do work. I get that being deliberately inflammatory on the internet is how you get responses, and I hate rewarding that, but let’s actually talk about this because I don’t think we’re 100% correct, but at least we have good reasons.
First, I think it’s worth discussing what constitutes ‘too much change’ for pro play vs. regular play. There’s definitely a subjective concept (survey pros! survey players!), but I wonder what is objectively considered too much for a pro player to adapt on a patch to patch basis. That’s a super philosophical question.
Regardless, it’s worth noting that 5.14 is the patch that all of the playoffs are being played on (per esports’ commitment), and then a later patch (definitely post-5.16) will be the standardized patch that Worlds will be played on. Pros do get a period of time between playoffs and worlds to practice.
So here’s where we get to the concept of what makes a competitive player. Every game out there values specific things, from Counter-Strike’s commitment to reflexes, snap aim, tactical map movement, or Quake’s movement-based, tracking-aim, power-up placement memorization. League’s always valued player adaptability to a high degree – probably higher than most competitive games. We know there are benefits (from a spectating perspective games are more varied, strategies are being changed up, different playstyles can shine and truly talented teams can demonstrate their mastery by staying ahead of the curve) and drawbacks (players feel they have to ‘re-learn’ the game, optimization of singular strategies isn’t possible, players with narrow champion pools are negatively impacted).
In other words, I’d challenge stability as the ultimate indicator of a competitive player. Faker has long been heralded as the pinnacle of League talent, and we appreciate him because of his tireless commitment to mastering core game mechanics and systems, while also innovating with an evolving game. I’d also mention, I don’t think these changes are so massive that they reinvent all that is League of Legends – they offer new strategic paths, but I have no way of objectively verifying just how much more powerful new, emergent strategies are vs. players believing they are.
All that said, I’m not saying this is a fool-proof argument – if we hear a lot of discussion that this is just too much, that teams just can’t accommodate, then this is definitely a lesson for the future. I just want to make sure we both realize we’re coming from two very different perspectives on what makes a good, competitive game of League.
Aatrox definitely needs some work, agreed, he does some fun stuff, but it’s too general overall.
Mundo, with his massive regen, poke from a traditionally poke weak class and berserker playstyle (benefits for low health) is someone we feel’s pretty close to distinct enough. Would be good to do some smaller stuff on him at some point, we feel other champs need the work a lot more though.
Nunu we feel’s extremely unique. Long duration MS/AS buff he can keep on multiple targets, extremely strong objective control off a base ability, repeated attack speed slows from a support like champion and an ult that controls space in a pretty distinct way with extreme punishment after a long telegraph.
Current assessment is Fizz is in a reasonable spot, given the uniqueness his Shark and Troll Pole offer, both in terms of playstyle and relative to other assassins. Might need to reward him more for AP builds/less for tanky ones, not sure on that front. As with Mundo though some opportunity to differentiate him a bit more with small changes, but a champ we feel’s got a strong need.
We haven’t started work on Shyvana or Olaf yet besides some really rough brainstorming, in part because we want to see how these changes, and the associated item changes, go. Assess what works, what doesn’t, where we should have taken things further or pulled back etc.
Got some time to test him out this morning and talk with the playtest team.
We definitely feel his presence in team fights is way higher than he was previous to these changes.
My current concerns lie within the consistency of his laning phase and if he’s just bit too soft there.
Here’s the changelist you guys will see in the next build:
Mana cost reduced to 30 from 40
Slow is now 90% at all ranks from 40/50/60/70/80%
Slow adjusted to 90% for 1 second from 99% for 0.75
These changes are aimed at making combo’d Q’s pretty much guaranteed. We want to ensure that there is still ample counter-play to the Q when used alone, but we’re pretty happy with Darius making it much easier for himself if he uses up his other resources successfully.
Overall, we don’t feel Darius is far off balance-wise in either direction, so we would like to take small steps at a time. We’re also really interested in how Darius progresses over time as people get used to the new Q.
Gonna address a couple of points I’ve seen brought up:
Currently it’s set to be a 90% slow for 0.75 seconds. It is designed to help ensure that E -> Q is a fairly guaranteed combo.
Lack of an Execution Indicator
We purposely left this out of Darius’s update for design reasons. Darius’s design and balance actually revolves around his R’s success and failures more than any other champion in the game.
Because of this when we added an indicator, the Darius gameplay became too much about just reacting to a UI element changing rather than making interesting, risky, and snappy decisions in the heat of battle that might cascade into a pentakill.
In a lot of cases we would prefer consistency across our champions, but in the Darius case we feel like the lack of the indicator allows us to retain power in certain areas and makes him more enjoyable in the long run.
Removal of Passive Movement Speed
This is essential to the direction we are moving the Juggernauts. They are intended to be and feel slow, but hopefully have a ton of other strengths to bring to the table to compensate.
This change became extremely important to make especially after we changed Hemorrhage to deal physical damage due to the insane synergy Darius now has with Black Cleaver.
Along with Bloodrage, this is the most significant change we made to the kit and we feel it’s 100% necessary for the long-term health of the champion. We’ve struggled in the past to make melee vs. melee combat interesting and skill-based, so this is us trying to address that.
I know it can be pretty painful to get used to, but we’ve tested it pretty thoroughly and feel you guys will be able to get the hang of it. Adding the delay allows us to load more power into the Q (the heal and increased late game damage) without just making him unstoppable in lane and other dueling scenarios.
Yeah Darius is one of the more pure, raw Juggernauts in the game. He truly has no movement bonuses and has fairly limited reach (though his reach is better than some of the other Juggernauts that do exist).
Hopefully Darius feels powerful for being that clean-up monster that none of the other Juggernauts can bring to the table.
Juggernauts were always a class of champions that we attempted to design (slow, tanky, high damage). We are simply taking a hard look at what we were trying to initially design, finding out where we went wrong in the past, and getting them to work in the modern day of LoL without just turning them all into the same generic champion.
Skarner and Garen are definitely on the fast side of Juggernaut while Darius is on the other side. We think it’s possible to make sure Darius can be stronger than the other 2 in different areas instead.
If there’s any part of the changelist that’s too much, I’ll be happy to reel it in. All data we have so far suggests that he’s at least as powerful as Live with these changes, and likely quite a bit stronger.
The flat Armor/MR model actually makes more sense in a world where Garen wants to build a lot of Health items (which he should have readily available to him in this patch). I think you may be right that it takes too long to farm currently, though. I’ll keep an eye out for that. This shouldn’t be too much of a nerf, since the Health items coming this patch (Sterak’s Gage, Ravenous Hydra, Warmog’s update, etc.) should allow him to build an abundance of Health and get more of what he needs in fewer items. I totally understand not liking the Tenacity nerf, but we do feel it’s important that Tanks and CC-heavy supports feel good about their efforts to peel the big tanky dudes running at their teams.
This skill also has a 5.5 Total AD ratio in the late game, so I don’t think it’s only amped by Penetration. Black Cleaver should be even better on him now, due to the higher AD ratio, as well as the fact that he’ll stack the passive faster due to the increased tick rate of Judgment.
This change is intended to improve play during the back half of Judment. Keep in mind, the cooldown of this spell is lower, so you’ll get to cast it more often, and there’s also a cooldown incentive to turning it off early if the enemy has escaped it, meaning it will become available to cast even sooner. He does a significant amount more damage now, and he was probably too sticky to merit it. Garen was allowed to have that level of stickiness before because his damage just wasn’t relevant in the later stages of the game most often, but it should be now.
His W is pretty darn boring, but individual abilities can be somewhat bland if there is added complexity to the kit elsewhere. In Garen’s case, we wanted to keep him available as a beginner player option, and we took some complexity out of W active, put we put some back in the R passive, E activation, and W passive farming.
We’ve also seen some Morde’s start Targon’s, particularly if they’re paired with a support that’ll really value the extra healing from that (supports that trade aggressively for example). Not sure if that’s optimal yet, worth a look though.
Supports with strong CC have been the most consistently successful so far in testing, since they let Morde get onto targets with his Q and set up well for the W damage field. Double Targon’s has also proven at least moderately effective, again not sure if that’s necessarily optimal or not though.
It’s likely this direction will make it quite a bit harder for Morde to solo lane, given the amount of benefit he gets from duo laing. That’s rough on people that enjoy solo Morde, we did feel this was the right approach to take though to get Morde into a spot where he could be made effective without having to massively change him overall. We believe Morde’s strengths and weaknesses can be preserved, or even amplified, in a way that’s a lot more functional/healthy when he’s got an ally to fill in some of his gaps.
Your understanding of the changes is accurate. My goal is not to “use Morde to break the meta” but to find a healthy home for Mordekaiser where he can be successful while still being himself (slow, tough, CC-free overwhelmingly powerful damage dealer). My feeling was that for this sort of profile, the champion could not be both successful and healthy on their own. Morde needs someone to help cover his weaknesses and actualize his strengths. Supports stood out as natural complements. They too are incomplete champions, lacking damage but bringing a lot of CC and ally buffs/hastes.
There is no unherent reason why playing Mordekaiser bottom lane will cause teams to lose. Structurally, he has the ability to forcefully push games to a conclusion by using his dragon to smash down the enemy base. In testing, we have had just as many games where he succeeds as fails.
Not at the champion design level. I think there are a few possibilities that Mordekaiser could demonstrate:
1) Melee bot lanes generally are… are sufficiently enjoyable for all players and sufficientlystrategically interesting to warrant further proactive steps by us to dislodge players from their habits;
2) The existence of one occasional melee bot lane is interesting and enjoyable but does not warrant further steps by us;
3) Melee bot lanes generally are interesting and enjoyable, but Mordekaiser is a poor execution of one;
4) Melee bot lanes are antithetical to “good” LoL design, and so we should not seek to support them.
Personally, I feel that #4 is unlikely. This means the central question is largely about whether a) there should be more melee bot lanes and b) at what level that “pushing” should come from us. Candidly, Mordekaiser is pretty “forced”.
I would love for players to feel that they can identify situations to run a wider number of existing champions successfully as the duo lane carry. In fact, Yasuo was an effort in this direction. Unfortunately, he is either ineffective in that capacity (though statistically bot lane duo is his highest win rate) or players are uncomfortable playing non-traditional styles. If the latter is true than I see my role as a designer not to “push” more champions into the lane but to create social and strategic space for players to innovate.
This, then, is my hope for Mordekaiser: that his presence in the bottom lane spurs players to think more broadly about how they can build team composition that have a greater diversity of champion archetypes without the need for us to customize kits to that lane.
It might be. I certainly didn’t start at 325. In fact, I was very hesitant and moved him down 5 MS at a time as opponents reported being completely unable to escape his onslaught. A major factor for this is that Mordekaiser has the base damage and base survivability to invest into a lot of movement speed items as the game progresses (Our playtesters often build him Targons–>Ninja Tabi->Phage->Trinity Force->Raptor Cloak->Rylai’s).
I think you might also be coming at this from the perspective of someone who has played “traditional” melee bot lanes, that must function as aggressive kill lanes in order to find any success. Mordekaiser has the scaling and defenses to whittle his opponents down and wait for a good opportunity (like a Thresh hook).
Harvesters of Sorrow (W) is not castable without an ally champion present. If you are alone as Mordekaiser, you’ll have to do without it unless an ally ganks/roams for you.
As others mentioned, Morde is still able to solo lane/jungle in our testing, but doesn’t shine as brightly as he does in a duo lane. I’m comfortable with that mainly because I do not think that Mordekaiser can ever be a marquee example of a healthy solo lane champion given how stark his strengths and weakness profile is — An excessive number of his lane matchups are determined either at champion select or through jungler intervention, not through the relative skill of Mordekaiser and his lane opponent. As I began to work on his mechanics though, the thing that stood out was how defined Mordekaiser was by those stark strengths and weaknesses. To round out his kit would have been to compromise him as a champion.
E in my mind is most healthy as a “parry” ability that provides a lot of instant shield. As a nuke, it lacks good play against most opponents, who can’t help but get into its range. As such, the damage had to come down a bit in the early game. I didn’t want the player to have to invest all their early skill points in a fundamentally passive skill, but rather in their preferred means of inflicting damage on their opponent.
Total AD scaling allows the ability to ramp up gradually across game time so that it is hopefully always meeting the needs of providing a “twitchy” active defense against enemy poke.
We don’t just want him to afk farm the jungle forever, but we are okay with his jungle presence being higher than his lane presence overall in the early game. Also, his E is a substantially stronger ganking tool now with how easily it applies the old passive stun, so he does make up for some of the loss of entry speed there if he hits it.
Also, the MS nerf may simply not be needed. We’ve tested various versions of this Skarner, and it seems to be quite strong still, but it’s totally undertandable that players would be concerned over such a big base MS nerf. If it looks like he needs it, we can certainly give it it back. This changelist likely isn’t final yet.
He’ll definitely have some camps that he clears faster than others now. With the crystals’ placement, he clears Red, Blue, Krugs, Wolves, and Crab incredibly well now, and isn’t quite as fast on Gromp and Razorbeaks. Also, the stun only takes 1 basic attack to trigger now following a hit E, so the loss of AS shouldn’t affect that.
Skarner should still have a pretty reliable tank/lockdown threat (probably even greater than before in this regard, given how is E now works) outside of his passive zones. What the zones really provide to him is incredibly boosted DPS and stickiness.
The vision on these things only lasts 10 seconds at the time they are captured, so they don’t really give much vision outside of the initial cap. And the gold they give out is basically symmetrical. In order for the enemy team to capture it and gain 15g, Skarner’s team has to own it (and they will hold it until the enemy team turns it over). Likewise, Skarner and his teammates will get 15g for recapturing it later. I do need to put in a better solution for level 1 gold provided by them right now, though.
His Q definitely still grants him bonus damage. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. The damage it deals is (TotalAD ratio) and an additional (TotalAD ratio + AP ratio) when charged. His clear speed is actually faster now.
You are right about him doing less dps in ganks now, but the ease at which he stuns enemies via E is increased pretty substantially, and the duration of the stun early game is a bit longer.
Feedback from playtesters has been that his E offers a higher total utility package than before, but I’ll keep an eye out for it.
You can find all the item changes coming to Patch 5.16 HERE.
MR itemization, especially end-game is not particularly stronger overall than it was before. (AKA – total end-game values of MR are relatively static compared to live. While Banshee’s and Visage have +5 MR – Aura MR is down by 5, for example.)
However, the build path for MR is a lot smoother to access – so reacting to an enemy AP should be easier. This nicely lines up with the changes made in AP to make building into a lot of AP items more streamlined.
Cinderhulk should be more powerful mid-game to compensate. It won’t actually be a nerf until you surpass 1k bonus health (AKA 3 complete health items).
The issue with Cinderhulk is that after this point, it became rapidly hard to control the impact of any health item in the game – as the effects of said item were wildly variant – hence the adjustment.
It’s true that Cinderhulk is nerfed in the late game after your 3rd major Health purchase. However, until you hit 1000 bonus health – you are strong that you were previously.
With the jungle items in their current state – if you wanted someone to be strong in the extreme late game – your first option probably wouldn’t be tanks to begin with given that there are multiple routes for end-game success in the jungle that it’s running directly into.
The other facet of this is that if Cinderhulk has to compete in the end-game against these other two – what it effectively would have to do is create unstoppable characters that cannot be killed – and so even if it does work – it wouldn’t be a state we’d be particularly happy with.
Therefore, by shifting Cinderhulk’s impact to be more impactful mid game and less impactful late game – the item actually has a window to shine – rather than be overshadowed end-game by a devourer or completely dominant when it is good.
You need to hard commit to armor in order to screw ADCs in the new Thornmail model – and ADCs that build crit can ignore Thornmail more than more AS centric ones.
If you’re trying to deal the same damage to a critical carry as before – you’ll need like 200 to 350 bonus armor (depending on the damage of the carry.)
It’s a net nerf overall – until you get into champion specifics. Rammus / Malphite in particular can hit much higher levels of Armor much earlier – and so their own synergies with the item increase, for example.
This is a hard stance to take, but we do agree with what you’re saying. That’s pretty much why we opened with an agreement.
Where it gets fuzzy… on this comment chain someone mentioned (https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3fwiy0/riot_pls_league_of_legends/ctsl875) that if someone wants to improve their freethrows, they go practice freethrows – in League that means players should have an expected mode available where they can practice combos, flashing, etc. I’m not straw manning this thing but that’s always been a core concern when it comes to dictating behavior. I’ll explain:
An answer like “players will see sandbox mode as an expectation rather than a ‘fun tool’ sounds very ‘we know better'” but it’s a pretty significant concern when you look at other games (ie: fighting games) where, if a player wants to get involved, they need to hop into dozens of hours of training mode first.
So in a game that’s oriented around players playing to improve, imagine a world where you miss one flash over a wall and your whole team tells you to quit and hop into sandbox mode? Once again, I don’t think it’s an ironclad stance that will convince the world – I do think it’s got merit. I’d imagine everyone’s had games already where someone’s told them to quit playing ranked and to go play normals. If an additional layer of sandbox got added underneath, that’s what we’re talking about.
I think a different thread died, but I wanted to link out a more cohesive perspective on this:
I think the concept of sandbox mode has a billion different meanings (free-form practice, custom game modes, etc), so just clear that we’re talking about a lot of things. The one that resonates the most is the concept of a free-form training mode for practicing abilities and techniques in isolation without the pressure of a game. That’s what we’re going to use as a shared definition!
When we say we have a lot of debate, we mean it. Even in discussions today, we have lead designers saying there are aspects of sandbox mode that we could or should explore. I’ve talked a lot about the risks in various threads, but I want to emphasize it’s not so much player toxicity as it is broad expectations. If the skill floor for fundamentals requires extensive time spent in sandbox mode, that’s kind of scary. But for many (including designers), this is an acceptable risk for the potential gains – like pros being able to practice or players who want to get better having that option. It’s choice vs. no choice, as many of you have said. I wanted to accurately represent both sides and acknowledge them.
The stance sounds fluffyish because it was born of necessity to put the conversation to rest. As banksy puts it, there are a lot of good reasons to explore training-sandbox mode and we’re having conversations even from these comments and replies. But in terms of prioritization, it’s still below our current ones. We are talking and we hear you – to do sandbox mode right will probably require a lot of investment.
Probably a lesson for the future then. For a nuanced topic like sandbox mode, that seems more like a discussion than something on a dev blog. It’s clear we sound super authoritative and hard-headed about this, so we’ll adjust. I do think it’s a conversation you can bring up as a “we still want this!” but we also want to be clear it’s not happening soon. In other words, an idea can be good but it also can not be a priority. There is DEFINITELY a better way to reach that conclusion because this one’s pretty, uh, painful.
I wouldn’t actually say it’s toxicity of the community as it is broad behavioral patterns. The thing about massive communities is how prone they are to group-think. I’ve said this before and this sounds super ‘we know better’ but it’s the same thing with community management. What a community ‘picks up’ as cultural norms or expectations sticks with them for a long time. I don’t want to analyze how these things get picked up in the first place, but if you look at something like the boards where there’s a lot of very heated debate over every little change, you can see that’s the ‘expectation’ of the environment. You can only really change that by iterative steps along the way (ie: “Let’s have a constructive conversation”).
Once again, this won’t be an answer that says “you are all convinced” – it’s an answer that shows there are a lot of underlying concerns and why it’s tough to judge which way that coin will fall.
I don’t think these responses are going to make things better or convince people who might have otherwise disagreed. I’m just making the stances clear on both sides, even if they are very, uh, polarizing.
Once again, I just don’t think this is going to be a “let’s convince everyone” because I get where your values are coming from and I’m just hoping people might see where ours come from.
I agree with you that educational mediums are huge for learning League – maybe we can get better at showcasing those (I believe in NA we’re highlighting them in the client).
The argument that “it would have happened already” with CS drills is something you do see even if it’s not on a broad scale. Where I’d say it’s ‘already happened’ is if you hop into a ranked game, perform badly, and hear someone tell you “go back to casuals” (or just uninstall). That does occur and that should be the last stop (or vs. AI bots) of where people go to when it comes to improving.
I realize I’m just repeating myself from other parts of the thread and it’s really clear the disconnect comes from a very odd “that is a risk” stance and y’all saying “it won’t happen that way.” I won’t say agree to disagree but…
Following Gnar’s teaser promo-site yesterday, Meddler addresses some spoiler-free questions like the Champion’s intended role, who’s worked on him and how to pronounce his name. Moving on, Lyte discusses the long-rejected Prisoner Islandsystem, which pits toxic players, leavers and so on in a separate environment. Game designer Fearless apologizes for the lack of communication on Sona’s rework and explains why auras need to remain short-ranged. Lastly, a Skin recolor survey surfaced on Reddit.
Â We believe top lane’s where Gnar’s going to be played most due to the way his kit functions, though we’ve tested him in other roles too of course. As with any new release though that’s just an estimate of course – internal testing’s no substitute for the millions of games that’ll get played once a champion’s out that really dig into how they’re best played.
Both Gypsylord and I have done gameplay design work on Gnar. Gypsylord’s definitely done more of the work than I have though, particularly in the later parts of Gnar’s development (most of my hands on contributions were in the earlier stages). CertainlyT’s currently focused on another champion that’s earlier in the production process.
Important to point out here though that gameplay design’s just a piece of what goes into a champion however. A wide range of people are part of making a character like this (animators, visual effects artists, modellers, producers, QA, 2D artists, sound designers, writers, software engineers, playtesters from a wide range of disciplines etc) – gameplay design’s just one piece of the puzzle.
[ Clarity ] The “Prisoner Island” system puts toxic players / AFK-ers in a separate queue from the rest of the player base.
Hey Arkon Tri,
The reason I haven’t dug into this is because we’ve discussed why these designs aren’t suitable for League (or many other games) in the past. Some other players have mentioned this, but you’re basically suggesting a concept called “Prisoner’s Island,” where you pair players with similar reputations together.Â
There’s a lot of nuances to low priority queue or Prisoner’s Island systems; for example, you can use low priority queue systems for behaviors like Leaving/AFK. These behaviors are binary–playersÂ knowÂ they either left a game or not, and there’s no subjectivity to the behavior. However, when you’re dealing with behaviors like verbal abuse, intentional feeding or negative attitude, it’sÂ far more subjective. Some players will get placed into low priority queue systems for these behaviors and vehemently disagree that they belong there–you’ll basically get a lot of, “What the? All these people in low priority queue are toxic,Â why am I here?“
In these cases, a lot of players (mainly those without purchased content) will simply make new accounts to re-enter the ecosystem with a neutral reputation rating. If these players do that, you’ve basically banned a player but used a complicated, time-consuming system to do so.
Secondly, a common issue with these designs is how you score new players. Do you score them in neutral priority, and force them to have worse matches than the “positive” players? This isn’t ideal, because generally you want your new players to have the best game experience. You obviously can’t start new players with 0 or negative reputation, as that’d be a negative experience. If you start new players with a positive reputation, then it gives toxic smurfs an easy way to ruin games at low levels while also further encouraging them to just start new accounts if they ever end up with negative reputation.
We’ve talked about a lot more reasons in the past, but Prisoner’s Island has basically been a concept for over 5 years and we know that it only works well with binary behaviors that are not subjective.
Ironically, what we find is that when you actually put players together in Prisoner’s Island and all 10 players are actually consistently toxic players for subjective behaviors like verbal abuse… it’s nearly impossible to change.
Again, Prisoner’s Island type systems work OK for behaviors like Leaving/AFKs which are binary, but are very, very counter-productive for subjective behaviors.
We have to go back and finish the Honor Initiative, and that’ll explain a lot of the reasons why Honor was setup the way it is but seems incomplete.
For example, right now there’s an issue with the Honor Ribbons where it’s simply rewarded to the top 20% of positive players on every server. Most of these players tend to play modes like ARAM and Co-op vs Bots because these modes simply have really high Honor give rates; so, you won’t see ribbons as much in Normals or Ranked. One of the fixes is making sure that we reward ribbons per queue, and not just per server.
Secondly, we have some rewards for the Honor Initiative that are more consistent. Right now, Ribbons are the top 20%, but there’s nothing for the everyday player who wants to be recognized for being positive while working their way up.
We’ve been working on a new system that addresses Leavers/AFKs more aggressively, and will talk about it in a post in the future. Without revealing too much, it’s a different take on low priority designs and will update LeaverBuster’s penalty and tuning systems.
Here’s where you disagree with a lot of recent research by multiple university labs. A lot of recent research has shown that online toxicity is not about anonymity. If you look at news, social media and other games that force you to reveal your real ID and often personal profile to post comments, there’s still an insane amount of toxicity. What the research has shown is that the problem is aÂ lack of consequences for actions, and this has very little to do with anonymity.
Secondly, the current systems don’t create more toxicity. Many players that are banned for racism, sexism or homophobia quit League of Legends and never play again, and that is exactly what we wanted. They’ll rage on the forums and complain, but that’s expected when you tell a group of players they don’t belong in this community. For the small number of players that do make new accounts, they’ll keep getting banned until they quit as well.
Third, there’s actually a system in place at low levels already that separates toxic smurfs away from other players and then bans them. We knew some of the toxic players would make new accounts when they got banned, and we did want to protect new players. However, we see that for many toxic players a few bans does get them to quit permanently. Prisoner’s Island systems don’t solve this issue by the way… many players just create new accounts when they enter Prisoner’s Island anyways.
I agree that for most players, making it ‘worth it’ to be nice is more effective, and we’ve been working on efforts to reward those players and give them more reasons to reflect on why being positive = awesome. However, we’re always going to need pretty aggressive systems for the small % of players that refuse to change. For these players, we just want to ban them repeatedly until they take their time elsewhere.
Bonus – apology from Arkon Tri and a focus on theorycrafting a proper punishment system
I added this in because it’s a great message: that you should always be arguing over suggestions, not over personas, if you want to reach a constructive conclusion.
No worries, we have heated discussions about designs much like this one internally all the time. One thing I think we both agree on is that we should always attack the ideas, and not the person. Emotions really just cloud decision-making when we’re trying to deep-dive into the intricacies of a design.
I wanted to post here to clear up the reasons we’ve been lowering Sona’s values, even while the community here is asking for buffs. Most of the balance changes are reflections of internal playtesting, as we can balance those scenarios pretty well (accounting for people playing their main roles and champs, having less of a learning curve due to their closeness to the changes, etc.) so they give us a reasonably strong environment for understanding a champ’s balance.
PBE doesn’t have all of this going for it. Matchmaking is much less precise on the PBE, and some players are just hopping into custom games.
Based off watching the internal playtests, Sona was strong, and not just a little strong. Sona really hadn’t lost a lane before these changes.
As a side note, for the people claiming that negative posts don’t get read, that’s not true. I’ve read every Sona post I can find on here, on community sites, reddit, everything. While also trying to get Sona as streamlined and bug free as I can, time to reply is pretty lown When I see 3 or 4 people spamming out really angry posts, I do take the feedback and try to understand the source of frustration.
I haven’t responded in this case because previous attempts to have discussions haven’t proven productive. I don’t expect to change the minds of people who’ve had poor experiences here based on talking about what happened in testing they can’t see and don’t believe in. Being called a monkey doesn’t really make me believe that folks are interested in a meaningful discussion. If I have to choose between making an attempt to appease people who haven’t displayed a tendency to actually interact with debate, or fixing up Sona for her release, I’m going to fix up Sona so that she’s a better addition to the entire game, for as many players as I possibly can.
I think it’s a very fair criticism that I didn’t speak to you all as much as you’d hoped for. Saying that only 3 comments on one thread doesn’t suffice? That get’s a bit tricky. What is the correct ratio of posts? Do I only count posts that have actually tried to open or inform a conversation, or should I count troll posts and people raging without having even played the rework? At what point is my time posting and searching for ambient Sona threads better spent talking with our QA, live balance team, and experimenting with changes, tweaks and bug fixing? It’s very possible that I didn’t get that formula even close to right. It’s something for me to improve on.
That being said, when I look at posts that have lots of incorrect information, I started the time on PBE correcting them to make sure truthful information would be visible. Seeing those posts then get downvoted tells me that this community would rather punish someone they don’t agree with rather than provide its members with the most accurate info. That’s really depressing for me, both as a community member and a designer. It also doesn’t help when words get put into my mouth. For E, example, I don’t think the AP ratio “balances the ability.” I think a completely new ability that gives Sona, as well as her allies a very large block of MS makes sense on a kit that focuses on positioning. Sona can now position for huge ults without Flash due to E, as well as use her other basic abilities with quicker repositioning to save her team and power them up.
When we change a champion, some of the balance will be comparative, but plenty of it can’t be. Sona is Sona, and her balance as a whole is very different than any other champion. Sona has to be balanced of the collection as her base stats, abilities, growth, item paths, etc. I know it can be frustrating to see a value go down, and it can be easy to dwell on that change in isolation. When we’re adjusting Sona, we’re looking at the whole, and when she was showing up really strong, we tried to keep her power in the places that gave Sona her own set of strengths and weaknesses. That means she has to be worse at some things than other champions, but she gets to have strengths that are actually her own.
It’s not that I don’t care. Some of the suggestions don’t fit the vision for the champion, some are just straight up OP, and some were tested and didn’t work as well as the current option. It’s been something I need to do better with to make sure that you and the rest of the community at least hears more in these situations. I’ll admit to getting overwhelmed with the actual implementation and analysis for Sona, and not spending enough time addressing the feedback.
The reason that we haven’t increased the effective range of the auras, either through a straight range increase or through something like this, is that it is intended that Sona continuously has to make a choice between playing safe and playing to maximize the effect of every cast. This is also why Sona has gotten even better AP ratios.
Sona players can build tanky/support tank and increase their safety, or they can opt into higher risk reward with AP builds. Larger effective aura sizes not only increase Sona’s effective support output, but decrease interaction with allies and leave opponents no real chance to respond if she’s strong, and no real room to buff her if she’s weak.
[ Context ] A Redditor shared a thread with screenshots of a survey Riot is currently conducting on the option of selling recolors of skins in the store for 390 RP.
Really happy to see the excitement here and wanted to provide a little bit more background.
This survey is part of our efforts to understand what the most important underlying elements of â€œRecolorsâ€ are and how important they are relative to each other. Everything is super exploratory at this point (ie: far too early to commit to recolors at all, a specific feature set, price or release date). But this feedback will directly shape what gets built because ultimately we want to delight you and what better way to maximize the chances of achieving that than getting your input?
On another note, surveys are a regular and central part of our quest to understand player wants, needs and behaviors. Importantly, they allow us to get representative responses from the various types of players. While forums and Reddit give us a lot of feedback and we are constantly perusing it, relying on them exclusively would lead to us missing the perspectives of players in other regions and those that donâ€™t participate in these venues. This is also a key reason for why surveys are sent to individual players rather than posted for public comment.
Players who didn’t get the survey enjoy the sneak peek, but it will inevitably set expectations for at least some players in ways that aren’t ideal. Meeting, falling short of, or exceeding player expectations keeps us up at night and public posts definitely make things a bit more volatile. From the player insights perspective (my discipline at Riot), it doesn’t help the validity of the surveys to have them posted up.
But at the end of the day, its part of the risk and done without malicious intent so we’ll roll with it.
So as anyone who has watched the Vi champ spotlight may know, Vi was originally intended to be a top laner.Â
She’s got a lot of cool gameplay in top lane with the Q charge up and E cleave but, honestly, she’s just too fair up there for too long compared to our current crop of top laners.
In the early game she has meaningful mana costs, telegraphed attacks, and massive cooldown windows for her passive and all of her spells (P – 18, Q – 18, E – 14 per charge, R- 150). I actually think top lane Vi could be a pretty awesome experience for both sides of the lane if we did stuff like lower her CD’s or buff E’s range and mana cost but then jungle Vi would go to crazy town. Could nerf jungle Vi to compensate but then are we screwing over the many Vi mains who prefer her out-of-lane experience? It’s a tough call.
All this said, SmashGizmo got diamond last season almost exclusively with top lane Vi. He’d typically play conservative until 6 focusing only on CS and rush an Iceborn Gauntlet for the extended dueling power and mana to offset her high costs. Turns out if a Vi manages to stay even until 6 there is not a single character up there (not even Irelia or Jax) who can beat her in a straight up 1v1. Her burst and sustained damage output is insane when she gets the chance to use it and her late game with top lane items is monstrous for the enemy teams’ squishies (or at least it was in season 3, a lot has changed since then).
How’s Yasuo holding up among other popular melee AD picks such as… Fiora?
Â CertainlyT:Â Hey guys,
We’re relatively happy with Yasuo’s current power level, for a few reasons:
He wins about as many games as he loses;
He is terrifying when ahead but still has the vulnerabilities to be defeated by coordinated enemies;
He is vulnerable to falling behind during the laning phase but still has the tools to contribute meaningfully with careful play;
He excels in synergistic team comps, especially when learning him, but functions well independently in the hands of an experienced player.
We’re also enjoying most of his gameplay:
He rewards a broad spectrum of skills — getting better at him involves improving your mechanics, judgment, and situational responsiveness (both in positioning and build);
He has a lot of sitational variance — seldom do two fights play out identically in any given game;
He succeeds at similar rates at all levels of play, implying that he scales roughly equally with both player skill and opponent skill.
As such, we don’t plan on buffing Yasuo per se. Obviously, he has a few kinks to be worked out in response to player feedback, so there will be changes, but the net effect should be fairly neutral when it comes to power level.
Specifically, in addition to a bunch of bug fixes, we’re looking at the following changes:
1)Boosting the power of Last Breath by having it grant maximum Flow on cast. The ability is currently lackluster at level 6, causing Yasuo to often fall behind in lane compared to his opponent’s ult unlock. This change will make it a better means of turning around a fight or re-engaging while low but keep its power in ganking cases unchanged.
2) Reducing the power of Statikk Shiv on Yasuo in two ways:
First, Shiv’s proc isn’t receiving the -10% crit damage modifier that Way of the Wanderer applies to all of Yasuo’s other crits. This will take Shiv crits from 200 to 180 damage before Infinity Edge.
Second, Shiv currently calculates its crit chance twice — if the attack that procs it crits, Shiv auto-crits; if the attack that proc’d it doesn’t crit, Shiv rolls for a crit. With 50% crit chance, you get a 75% crit rate on Shiv procs. This is true across all champions. We’ll be fixing both of these in upcoming patches.
The result should address some of the snowball concerns players have correctly expressed regarding Yasuo — a fast Shiv won’t grant as much non-scaling magic damage at a very early level — and will leave us in a better position to assess his overall power level. We still expect Shiv to remain a core item on Yasuo, but it won’t offer quite the power spike it does at present.
Won’t this buff to Last Breath push him over the edge late game in terms of power?
Â CertainlyT:Â You raise a relevant concern. However, the R is not an on demand move. If a player can set this up, they deserve to be rewarded. Since the core counterplay to Yasuo (Maintain proper spacing in the face of AOE knockups, CC, focus fire) denies his ability to refresh his shield, I’m not particularly nervous. I would also note that we as a design team shouldn’t shy away from risky changes. The most cautious design choices are seldom the best. One virtue of running a live-updated game is that changes which turn out to not generate good gameplay can always be reverted.
Are you nerfing Shiv because of Yasuo?
Â CertainlyT:Â That change to Shiv was not motivated by Yasuo directly. It just happens to hit him pretty hard, so I felt compelled to point it out. The change was prompted by a desire to better differentiate Shiv and Phantom Dancer, both of which might soon be seeing some statistical adjustments.
Can you make Windwall (W) thinner?
Â CertainlyT:Â We haven’t been consistent with the exact position from which our missiles spawn on Champions. Some come from the hand, some from the center of the model, etc. Yasuo’s Wind Wall is already 1 unit “thick” so further improvements will come over the next few patches as JHa and I make sure missiles are coming from the right “bone” or position on a champion’s model.
Any bugfixes you have in store?
Â CertainlyT:Â This should largely be fixed next patch with a tech solution that resolves any remaining edge case possibilities the patch thereafter.
Don’t you think he’s too powerful and players simply haven’t caught up on his potential?
Â CertainlyT:Â That’s possible. He’s certainly a very powerful champion, but then again champions should be powerful.
These changes put him in a position where we can better assess his true power level. I would note that many players have already played 100+ Yasuo games, so we are starting to get meaningful feedback which suggests that he is not as dramatically out of line. Since you appear to have very few games with him, I don’t think you’re in a better position to assess whether or not he is overpowered.
Any plans to make Yasuo’s E->Q combo feel more responsive?
Â CertainlyT:Â Yes, the combo should be more responsive after next patch, though of course your circular Q will still be delayed until the end of the dash. Generally, the EQ combo is not intended to be strictly better than the Q by itself, but it should offer the player a choice in how they best perform their Q. In the mean time, smartcasting your Q should increase the reliability of the combo (especially EQ3) due to how the client handles sending and receiving information to and from our servers.
Why should I use his E->Q combo?
Â CertainlyT:Â The EQ combo has a number of advantages:
1) It has no cast time, so does not impair your mobility. Real talk: While dashing through minions to catch an enemy, it’s strictly better to EQ minions to build a stack toward your Q3 than to E…line Q. so your assertion that it’s “never better” is just hyperbole.
2) Can hit multiple enemies not lined up, and so offers targeting flexibility.
3) Is less avoidable in a number of contexts. For example, if an enemy is near max dash range, they will more easily be able to avoid a regular Q than an EQ due to the narrowness of the Q. When I speak about EQ responsiveness changes I am referring to not having to mash Q immediately upon beginning your dash. With reasonably quick decisionmaking, you should be able to decide mid-dash whether you’d like to circular Q or save your Q for a post-dash line nuke.
4) It forces the enemy to adjust their counterplay, which can often put them in the position you want.
You have mentioned some of the disadvantages of the combo. Most of those just involve the enemy playing well, which is something we should reward, not punish.
Won’t this change to Flow invalidate a lot of the counterplay strategies against him?
Â CertainlyT:Â Definitely thought a lot about this concern. What motivated us to make the change anyhow was that the poke, wait, engage strategy against the shield is intended to become less relevant as the game progresses. In lane, being ulted is generally a result of the enemy’s poor decisionmaking and so with proper management of Yasuo, it shouldn’t be a huge issue.
As to Yasuo having too many mini-games, I will agree that counterplay manifests on a number of axes (axises?). This is intentional as I feel it makes Yasuo less binary in his matchups. Different champions (and players) are able to better perform at different mini-games, which means that even if your champion isn’t good at one, you can focus on the other. As an example, champions without ranged attacks are weaker at poking through Yasuo’s shield (e.g., Riven), but also can take more liberties with their positioning vis-a-vis their own minions since they are likely want Yasuo to close on them.
Personally, I find laning against Yasuo more enjoyable than laning against Garen (a champion with two primary axes of counterplay — maintain range when his cooldowns are available; damage him periodically to prevent his passive from activating) or LeBlanc (shove the lane or she kills your side lanes) because of how many ways there are to improve against him and because my strategy often varies dramatically depending on my champion’s strengths, but opinions may vary.
Do you think Yasuo’s early game on mid is too strong?
Â CertainlyT:Â Yasuo is designed to have a “Tristana-esque” power curve — a strong level 1-3, a notable spike at 6, with a distinct trail off until he reaches his core items. I really like these sort of power curves across time because they mean that one player is sometimes the aggressor and sometimes not. Figuring out “who’s the beat down” given a number of variables is one of the cooler aspects the laning phase.
That said, it’s very possible that Yasuo’s levels 1 and 2 areÂ tooÂ strong. Too soon to tell at the moment though. At the moment, I think that with cautious play Yasuo is containable at these levels. I also think that Yasuo needs to play very cautiously himself the rest of the time.
Why is Yasuo manaless?
Â CertainlyT:Â I see this posted a lot. Mana is only one way to gate a champion.
In the case of Yasuo, the resource gate on spells is actually inverted. Yasuo is gated by the NEED to act. If the Yasuo player is not successfully casting Q and E, he’s falling behind — Q builds stacks toward his knockup. E builds his passive. Each of them also leaves Yasuo vulnerable. In lane, Q starts at a 0.42 second cast time and E alerts the enemy to his exact position in 0.6 seconds (the time of the dash). Using those momentary losses of control to your advantage as the opponent can help you land skillshots or reposition against him.
In team fights, the need to build Q stacks requires Yasuo to find targets (like the Wraiths, minions, or enemy champions that move into his team’s lines) before he can cast his more powerful Q3. The E requires him to move around in a fight to keep his passive working, making him less of a target chooser and more of a target taker.
He also has no inherent sustain, rare for a melee, and most of the time is short range, allowing him to be harassed. We could have given Yasuo mana, bumped his durability/regen up a ton, and given him long range waveclear tools, but instead we made him manaless, fragile, and short ranged. Personally, I think this was the right choice as health as a resource is something that the enemy actually has control over. Mana regen is mostly a function of itemization. It should be more satisfying to maintain proper range while harassing Yasuo out of lane than to build enough armor that Pantheon cannot kill you with spears before OOMing.
That’s not to say that resourceless designs are not more stressful to fight against than mana driven designs. Mana-based champions can be tied by avoiding their damage. Resourceless champions must be defeated through offensive action. Creating the proper amount of stress is an important part of design and really hope that Yasuo has the vulnerabilities to make players feel like they can find opportunities to defeat him through skilled ability use, which in turn should make the added stress worthwhile.
Is Yasuo proof that League is moving toward mobility creep?
Â CertainlyT:Â I’ve always found “mobility creep” to be an odd choice of words. Would you say that we are suffering from downward “point-and-click stun creep”? It’s no secret that we tend to favor some element of mobility in our newer designs. It’s also no secret that we tend to favor fewer point and click stuns. Personally, I feel mobility is very helpful for the following reasons:
First, champions with mobility can be given a lot more weaknesses, particularly when it comes to durability and reliability of CC. Nasus/Darius/Mundo etc. have to be more or less able to buy 100% defensive items in order to be viable. There are only so many Patchwerk-style DPS tests we can put into the game. Additionally, we can provide a lot less reliability to other elements of their kit when we add dashes to champions. Nasus Wither, Nunu Ice Blast, and Sion Cryptic Gaze are not our best spell designs, but are required for these champions to be able to close the gap against ranged champions since in the absence of reliability in their CC they would die to ranged basic attacks should they ever miss a skillshot.
Second, mobility makes the game more volatile. Ever played Udyr against Ashe? You just slowly lose. Mobility allows for the sort of rapid turn arounds or engagements that can swing fights drastically in the blink of an eye. That is exciting and adds an element of unpredictability to the game. Lower mobility champion encounters often “end” well before one champion dies, because the outcome becomes obvious.
Third, mobility limits the problem of fighter stacking. Historically, when the metagame shifted to low mobility fighters, it shiftedÂ waaaayÂ toward low mobility fighters. This is because champions that crowd control their enemies in order to reach them are highly symbiotic. Mundo loves a Nasus Wither, because it allows him to gap close freely and spam Cleavers from melee. Nasus loves a Mundo Cleaver hit because it means he can close to Wither range with 100% certainty and from there he’s tough to stop. When we give our melee champions mobility instead of CC, they all have to use their mobility skills to reach the enemy backline and so can be balanced to be satisfying and effective on a team that is otherwise comprised of ranged champions and can be given more specific synergies than “is melee”.
Additionally, I’d like to make a few observations about mobility.
First, the game will always grow most in the directions it hasn’t yet grown. This is almost a tautology. Our early designs tended to be relatively immobile. Our subsequent designs tend to be relatively more mobile because we want to give players novel experiences. Since mobility, and kit designs made possible by mobility, were not well explored on release, it is only natural that we would flesh that area of design space out more fully as the game continues to evolve. We’ve also evolved the game in other directions including novel sorts of skillshots, new methods of casting, etc.
Second, mobile champions do not actually crowd out non-mobile champions. We are currently seeing a ton of powerful but immobile champions dominating the scene in every position except the jungle (where wall hopping is currently highly favored). Mundo and Shyvana are arguably the defining top laners at the moment alongside highly mobile champions like Renekton. Orianna is the most consistent mage since we nerfed Karthus earlier in the season (and Kayle will likely be the next dominant mid), alongside the mobile Gragas/Kassadin. Draven, Jinx and Sivir, who have MS boosts but not dashes, are dominant AD carries, alongside Lucian/Ezreal.
Finally, I would note that we are hopefully getting better at implementing interesting mobility skills. We try now to gate movement in ways that create gameplay for the opponent. Jinx is slow as molasses, until the first kill. Yasuo is a flurry of motion, unless you isolate him from your minions. Rengar has infinite leaps, but only near brush. Even in the domain of free target dashes, we have consistently upped the counterplay to dash abilities over the past year. The most obvious recent examples are Vi, Zac, Lissandra and Aatrox, who all have a special animations/cast paradigms to allow for clever enemies to CC them out of their dashes.
Zyra’s popularity as a support pick has certainly sprung a number of unexpected builds and given seed to unique team comps… ok I’ll stop.
Â CertainlyT: I promised to answer Zyra questions in another thread so I’ll preemptively address some concerns I have heard from players over the past few weeks:
1) I feel Zyra is a powerful champion — she has best in class counter-engage and near best in class “unique utility” in the area of vision (seeds and plants) and early objectives (plant tanking), supplemented by potent offensive poke potential and a skillshot gated offensive lock down + kill combo.
2) I am happy to have a Zyra on my team in either the duo lane or in mid. She’s more generally powerful as a support but definitely still works mid, just not as a blind insta-lock.
3) Duo lane Zyra should still feel like a mage, distinct from “pure supports” such as Soraka and Sona. At present, I feel like a control mage when playing Zyra in the support slot, which is proper and fits with both our day 1 design goals and our present vision for Zyra as a champion.
4) Spellthief’s Edge–>Frostfang is just underpowered at the moment. It’s the perfect item for duo lane Zyra, but just isn’t carrying its weight. When balanced, Zyra’s gold flow should be improved and her strengths, both within and outside of laning phase, should feel more pronounced.
5) Annie is crowding out a lot of mage-style support play at the moment. She’s too powerful, too early, just as Zyra was 6 months ago. Hopefully some of our pending tweaks should bring Annie more in line and increase the frequency of play of our roster of non-tank supports.
6) To the extent Zyra were to be buffed in some hypothetical future world, I think her mobility (base MS) and mana costs (while wave clearing) would be the best places to start, but we are not thinking about buffs at the moment because of the aforementioned points.
a) Zyra will always have an element of niche appeal for a number of reasons, most prominently: Her E, Grasping Roots, is so tremendously powerful that players interested in other elements of her kit will find her unappealing. Additionally, as an extremely fragile long range mage players who like having outs when they get themselves into bad situations will become frustrated while playing her.
b)Real talk — Zyra is not the most well designed of champions for some very core reasons. Two examples: Plant damage will never feel as powerful as it truly is due to being a long duration damage over time; Her plants are insufficiently differentiated to let the player feel that they are consistently improving their spell use as they play her. It’s important to be honest with your own work, and this is something I just have to live with as her designer. In the long run, we may make efforts to resolve some of these, but it will not be easy since they are deeply baked into the kit and I might not be the best person for the job (though I would like to spend some time on it at some point down the line).
c) As a result of these, even in a state of balance, a lot of people will subjectively feel that Zyra is weak. If you feel as if Zyra doesn’t offer a lot to her team, is incapable of dealing damage, or just lacks the tools to succeed, it’s entirely possible that Zyra just isn’t the champion for you. One of the most unfortunate aspects of her being over-tuned on release is that players developed an attachment to her for reasons that were not long-term sustainable and as such feel weak when the champion ends up being balanced.
I’d argue that Rumble and Sona are other examples of this pattern: champions who likely should have niche appeal (melee DoT mage and passive aura dispenser) but who become widely played while overpowered only to feel lackluster when balanced.
Anyway, if anyone has questions, I will be around periodically for the next hour or so.
Why is Zyra so squishy?
Â CertainlyT:Â Zyra’s fragility is an intended weakness. She’s a long range poke mage who, when properly played, forces the enemy to deal with her plants as well as with her. If an enemy can close the gap, they deserve to deal substantial damage to her. If she lacks the tools to stay safe, I’d prefer to buff those tools rather than her raw durability. That’s why I mentioned base MS as a hypothetical area we’d look at when hypothetically buffing her, hypothetically. Did I mention you should not run around quoting this thread as a promise for buffs?
How do you feel about her plants applying on-hit spell effects?
Â CertainlyT:Â I really like how Zyra’s plants can apply spell hit effects like Liandry’s. It differentiates them from some of our other pets and makes them feel like they are an extension of Zyra herself. We were able to do this because her plants are low durability and finite lived. In iterations where they didn’t strictly meet both of these criteria, spell hit effects were frustrating and absurdly powerful.
Why does she have such short range on her ultimate?
Â CertainlyT:Â Because her ultimate is a counterengage tool. Zyra and her plants poke you to death with the threat of rooting and knocking up enemies foolish enough to wade past the plants to her.
As to plant durability, I think it’s in a great spot with the notable exception of AoE DoTs, such as Anivia’s R, Singed’s poison, or Miss Fortune’s Make It Rain. Plants die way too fast to those. We need to design a system to differentiate those from single target DoTs and single application AoEs that can be implemented at reasonable cost and which doesn’t impose excessive burden on future designers. I’ll work on that!
When is Zyra a good choice in games?
Â CertainlyT:Â In solo queue, I feel that Zyra is an excellent midlane choice against bruiser heavy teams, especially when put into poke/seige compositions, for example with a Jayce and Ezreal on my team in other lanes. You could run Nidalee there, but I think you risk being overrun and those two should bring enough damage to allow tower pressure. They just need a way to keep the enemy frontline from reaching them. Lux, Gragas and Karma also work in this context. I also think she does well with pure tanks (like Nautilus) since she synergizes very well with other CC champions due to the delays on her CC and the high sustained damage output of plants.
Why do niche Champions exist along-side more powerful, “non-niche” ones?
Â CertainlyT:Â Good question! A few answers:
1) In terms of gameplay niches, I think having generalists and specialists is fine, provided the reward for playing a specialist in the right situation is high. I’d point to Brand as a generalist mage — decent CC especially post-Rylais, good laning phase (1v1 power), great team fight aoe damage (where mages typically excel). That doesn’t make Brand a bad design.
2) However, most champions should excel uniquely in an area or two. We certainly have some champions that are too generally powerful at the moment. It’s a delicate process though, because our Live team wants to make the right changes as so typically does not rush to action before thinking about the champion’s kit as it fits the game.
3) It’s easy to feel like a champion is a generalist when they are just an overtuned specialist. Zyra is a good example of this. She was always clearly at her best when counter-engaging or supporting an engagement with follow up CC. She also happened to offer so much damage that you couldn’t trade with her profitably in other situations. This means that trimming a bit of power can in some cases go a long way toward letting a champion stand out for their distinct strengths.
Â Meddler: We’re currently looking at a couple of cases where Ziggs can be problematic:
1. As a early lane bully.
2. Mid to late game when poking and well fed/farmed
Solutions we’re looking at right now are:
1. Reducing his passive damage, base and ratio, at levels 2-6 ish especially, scaling back up to the same values by level 18, to reduce his lane bully presence against a lot of mids.
2. Reducing his Q/E AP ratios a bit, while leaving the bases as is, so a well fed Ziggs doesn’t chunk targets quite so much harder than an average Ziggs.
No guarantees that’s what we’ll opt for yet, there are a couple of other options we’ve discussed too, such as making it so his mines deal reduced damage on subsequent hits to minions again for example. That would have the benefit of bringing his farming potential down a bit, which may simply be too high at the moment, would have the trade off though of weakening his siege/counter siege niche as well.
We’re looking to get some changes into thCe balance patch after the next one (the next’s locked down at this point).
This is Tryndemeres daughter he thought was dead. But was really taken away by the one who destroyed his home village. Now she has returned with a hatred for her father. Being raised by her father’s sworn enemy and told that her fathers lust for power and anger caused him to kill her kin. she is fueled by a false sense of hatred towards her father.She trains her whole life to fight and kill her Father in the League of Legends tournament. Seeing her hatred Tryndemere’s Nemesis gave her an ancient evil demon sword that lusts for blood. She can transform into a demon with the power of the sword so she can execute her lust for vengeance!
Yasuo dashes to solemn victory, harnessing the raw power of the wind to elevate his unmatched elemental swordsmanship. A former member of an Ionian martial school and the only student to have mastered a legendary wind technique, Yasuo now lives a tempestuous life, drifting through Runeterra as he hunts the true killer of the Ionian elder he was sworn to protect.
Way of the Wanderer ( Passive )
Intent:Â Yasuo’s critical strike chance is doubled.
Resolve:Â Yasuo gains Flow as he moves â€“ the faster he moves, the faster his Flow meter fills. When full, Yasuo activates a brief shield after taking damage from enemy champions or monsters.
Steel Tempest ( Q )
Yasuo thrusts forward with his sword, damaging all enemies in a line. Successfully landing Steel Tempest grants Yasuo Gathering Storm stacks for a short period. The third stack of Gathering Storm causes Steel Tempest to send out a whirlwind that travels in a line and sends all enemies caughtÂ Airborne.Â If Yasuo casts Steel Tempest during Sweeping Blade, the ability strikes all enemies immediately around him.
Active:Â Yasuo creates a wall of wind that slowly drifts forward for a few seconds. The wall blocks all enemy projectiles.
Sweeping Blade ( E )
Yasuo dashes a fixed distance through an enemy, dealing damage and marking them briefly. If Yasuo uses Sweeping Blade multiple times in succession, the ability deals extra damage up to a cap. Yasuo cannot use Sweeping Blade on an enemy that’s already been marked.
Last Breath ( R )
Yasuo teleports to a nearbyÂ AirborneÂ enemy champion, briefly suspending them and all surroundingÂ AirborneÂ enemies mid-air as he damages them. Once he lands, Yasuo gains significant armor penetration against his enemy’sÂ bonusÂ armor for an extended period of time.
Yasuo’s a sustained damage fighter with high mobility, strong utility and damage output that ramps up the longer he survives in combat. The tradeoff here comes in the form of low damage during Yasuo’s early game.
Yasuo’s early game fragility makes him a champion best suited for the shortest lane on Summoner’s Rift: mid. He farms safest here, concentrating on building up his experience and gold as he itemizes his way to domination. But even though Yasuo is at his weakest in the early game, his strength and mobility still has the potential to surprise his enemies. Yasuo can use Steel Tempest to last-hit from a relatively safe distance, and if he needs to secure backline minion gold, quick consecutive casts of Sweeping Blade send him dashing to and from, with Way of the Wanderer’s shield absorbing some of the inevitable incoming damage. Yasuo can use Sweeping Blade as a handy escape during gank attempts, too: if he’s caught between the enemy melee and caster minions, using the ability to dash back towards his own turret should help dissuade all but the most stubborn of junglers from pursuing.
And when the winds change direction, careful timing turns Yasuo into a deadly accomplice in friendly gank attempts. Stacking Steel Tempest properly and using Gathering Storm to toss his enemy skywards means initiation from the jungle is a relatively simple matter, and once the enemy’s caught, Yasuo uses Sweeping Blade to dash in and get to work. Way of the Wanderer’s critical strike boost help Yasuo’s attacks sting, while if he’s unlocked Last Breath, the additional damage and crowd control makes kills all the more likely.
A melee monster with damage that increases the longer teamfights last, Yasuo’s first priority is to stack Gathering Storm while weathering the enemy team’s initial onslaught. This is where Wind Wall comes into its own. Carefully positioning the wall between the enemy front and back lines allows Yasuo to engage on the less threatening tanks and bruisers, generating Gathering Storm stacks with liberal use of Steel Tempest. Once the third cast is ready, Yasuo repeatedly uses Sweeping Blade to rush through the entire enemy line and position himself beside or behind the enemy squishies. A final Steel Tempest casts them skyward, opening up Last Breath, a lethal ability for anyone caught in the whirlwind. Enemies that manage to juke away from Yasuo’s whirlwind aren’t necessarily safe from Last Breath: any knock-up abilities can be chained with Yasuo’s ult, making him hugely synergistic with champions like Cho’Gath, Malphite and Zyra. Once he’s landed, Yasuo’s huge bonus armor penetration buff, combined with the critical strike bonus from Way of the Wanderer, makes short work of even the tankiest of tanks.
Yasuo is a man of resolve, an agile swordsman who wields the wind itself to cut down his foes. But this once proud warrior has been disgraced by a false accusation and forced into a desperate fight for survival. With the world turned against him, he will do everything in his power to bring the guilty to justice and restore his honor.
Once a brilliant pupil at a renowned Ionian sword school, Yasuo was the only student in a generation to master the legendary wind technique. Many believed he was destined to become a great hero. However, his fate was changed forever when Noxus invaded. Yasuo was charged with guarding an Ionian Elder, but, foolishly believing his blade alone could make the difference, left his post to join the fray. By the time he returned, the Elder had been slain.
Disgraced, Yasuo willingly turned himself in, prepared to pay for his failure with his life. He was shocked, however, to find himself accused not just of dereliction, but of the murder itself. Though confused and racked with guilt, he knew the assassin would go unpunished if he did not act. Yasuo raised his sword against the school and fought his way free, knowing his treason would turn all of Ionia against him. Now truly alone for the first time in his life, he set out to find the Elder’s real killer.
Yasuo spent the next several years wandering the land, seeking any clue that might lead him to the murderer. All the while, he was relentlessly hunted by his former allies, continually forced to fight or die. His mission drove him ever forward, until he was tracked down by the one foe he dreaded most â€“ his own brother, Yone.
Bound by a common code of honor, the two warriors bowed and drew their swords. Silently they circled one another under the moonlight. When they finally charged forward, Yone was no match for Yasuo; with a single flash of steel he cut his brother down. Yasuo dropped his weapon and rushed to Yone’s side.
Overcome with emotion, he demanded to know how his own kin could think him guilty. Yone spoke: â€œThe Elder was killed by a wind technique. Who else could it be?â€ Understanding swept over Yasuo as he suddenly realized why he had been accused. He professed his innocence once more and begged his brother’s forgiveness. Tears streamed down Yasuo’s face as his brother passed in his arms.
Yasuo buried Yone under the rising sun, but could take no time to mourn. Others would be after him before long. His brother’s revelation had given Yasuo newfound purpose; he now had the clue that would lead to the true killer. Swearing an oath, he gathered his belongings and, with one last look at Yone’s grave, set out with the wind at his back.
Â CertainlyT: Yasuo is a melee AD carry. He is closer in build path to Riven than Garen (a typical build might be Vamp Scepter/Statikk Shiv/Merc Treads/IE/Guardian Angel/Randuins), whereas I often build defensive items earlier on Garen and then start building offense as my base damage becomes insufficient. His power curve is designed to be less focused on the early game than Riven and more on the mid and late game.
Yasuo can only cast Last Breath on champions knocked up by negative status effects. It does not work on champions that are leaping, dashing or jumping.
EQ is not instant. You can miss because Yasuo’s dash is a fixed distance move, similar to Fizz’s Q.
Wind Wall blocks all projectiles that hit it, from any direction. Yasuo can indeed move or dash through it as needed. The wall is very thin so standing inside of it is not a particularly effective strategy in most cases.
Wind Wall is an instant ability, so you can make sick reaction plays. Tried to get the feel of slashing a bullet out of the air.
How do you pronounce Yasuo?
Does Yasuo use Mana or is ‘Flow’ considered his resource system?
Yasuo is manaless. Flow is tracked on his resource bar but is not required for him to cast his other abilities.
Passive – Way of the Wanderer[*]Resolve – Does the shield scale with any stats (AD, AP, Health) or is it a flat, based on champion level type deal?
The shield scales only with champion level. Movement speed causes it to occur more frequently and so is an indirect scalar.
Q – Steal Tempest[*]While obviously not a dash, the ability does say ‘thrusts forward’ does this mean it moves him forward slightly like Trundle’s Q and Udyr’s E, or is it just a straight up line nuke like J4’s Q?
Yasuo’s Q does not move him. It is similar in nature to a very short and narrow Jarvan Q — damage in a narrow line.
[*]When I reach three stacks of Gathering Storm is the cooldown on Q reset, or do I have to wait for it to come back up again? If it is reset, does holding on to it allow my regular Q’s cooldown to tick down, like a 5 fury Rengar, basically acting as a separate spell on a separate cooldown, or will it be more like Lee Sin’s spells, where the cooldown will not activate until my second cast?
The cooldown does not reset. You have to wait for your Q to be naturally available again, at which point you can try to knock the opponent(s) up.
[*]Does casting Steel Tempest while being in the animation of Sweeping Blade allow Yasuo to build multiple stacks of Gathering Storm, if he hits multiple enemies?
No, only one stack of Gathering Storm can be gained per time you cast Q.
[*]While at Full Stacks of Gathering Storm can Yasuo use his EQ combo for an AoE knock up?
Yes. Note that the regular Q itself is also AOE however (in a line rather than a circle around him.
W – Windwall[*]What is the incentive for leveling this ability past level 1, only the cooldown of the active, or will there be other levers as well?
The wall grows wider, the cooldown is reduced, and the associated passive (increased Flow gain while dashing) becomes more pronounced. This is the skill that grants you more defenses when leveled.
[Naritori]Â What’s his Q like in-game?
Â CertainlyT:Â The Q is intended to be moderate reliability. It is slightly narrower than Corki R (the little ones). Combined with the need to land two in order to get the big pay off spell, low cooldown felt appropriate. I think of it as a skill shot basic attack.
Â CertainlyT:Â Early iterations of Yasuo’s Q were conal AOEs. The gameplay wasn’t right. The katana is actually a very capable thrusting weapon and the mechanic was exactly what Yasuo needed.
[Pink Bunnny]Â Does his W block all projectiles, including ults and auto attacks?
Â Â CertainlyT:Â Yes, why is “all” so difficult to fathom? 😉
[DM OVi]Â What about the cooldown on his E?
Â Â CertainlyT:Â The cooldown on his E is almost zero (0.5-0.1). Functionally, this is a dash whose cooldown is calculated per target (10 to 6 seconds, non-reducible by CDR). As a result, Yasuo has high mobility through a fight, but is below average at training a single fleeing champion (The dash’s cast range is 475; Irelia’s Q is 650 for comparison).
Also, yes, Yasuo is not very interested in AP itemization. Basic attacks are central to his play pattern.
[SanSarra]Â How does his E work?
Â Â CertainlyT: If Yasuo dashes through Annie, he cannot dash through Annie for 10 more seconds, but he can almost immediately dash through anyone else. Think about it literally as an ability that has a cooldown per target, kind of like Udyr’s Bear Stance stun.
Â Â CertainlyT:Â Yasuo’s E works on minions.
Â Â CertainlyT:Â The only cap on dashing is having a neutral or enemy unit in range that you haven’t dashed to within the last 10-6 seconds. So in a team fight with 5 enemy champions, 6 minions, Tibbers and a Shaco Clone, you could dash 13 times per 6 seconds if you could somehow manage to chain it all together properly. Now, I’m not going to promise those fixed distance dashes will get you anywhere you want to be. That’s up to the player.
Follow-up: Will there be an indicator of who I can or can’t dash to?
Â Â CertainlyT:Â Yes, Yasuo has a self-only circle timer around units he dashes to. It counts down the remaining cooldown like a hand circling a clock.
[SanSarra]Â How did you come up with his kit?
Â Â CertainlyT:Â Working here fosters creativity:
We have a ton of concept art and story that came together prior to beginning work on a champion’s abilities.
We have an awesome team of champion designers to bounce ideas off of (and in some cases borrow ideas from ;-), and seasoned leaders to keep us on the right track.
We have an amazing team of QA and Live designers who help with not just ideation but with establishing good kit flow and healthy gameplay.
We have ingenious engineers who push the limits of what is possible in an ability.
We have insanely creative and passionate modelers, animators, particle artists, and sound designers who bring the champion to life, tying abilities to theme.
Will the condition for his ult be a fun mechanic?
Â Â CertainlyT:Â Good question. Not being to ult can indeed be a drag. Setting up a perfect ult across the entire enemy team, or moving from one side of a spread out team fight to another can be very fun. I’m a big believer in limitations combined with heightened rewards for success.
We have a lot of champions on our roster. If Yasuo isn’t for you, I’m sure you can find a few you like.
What’s the cooldown and duration of his wall?
Â Â CertainlyT:Â At present, we are testing the Wind Wall at a 26/24/22/20/18 cooldown. The Wall currently lasts 3.75 seconds. Also note that Yasuo has poor offensive scaling with CDR.
[Symphonide]Â If Yasuo’s W blocks Jinx’s R, does the missile still explode for AoE damage?
Â Â CertainlyT:Â No, the missile is destroyed as in it fails to perform its function. It is not destroyed in that it detonates.
[AceBlack] Why did you design the Wall the way you did?
Â Â CertainlyT: Wind Wall is designed to allow Yasuo to create spaces in which he is invulnerable (to certain abilities at least). I felt this was a healthier direction than Tryndamere’s temporal invulnerability (time based). Personally, I don’t think this ability would be healthy on a support since they can be flexibly assigned to the place on the map where it will be most powerful with lower consequences. A melee AD carry felt like the perfect spot for the ability in our game since they are fragile and rely on active defenses.
Why is Yasuo a AoE/teamfight-centric character when samurai prefer 1v1 combat?
Â Â CertainlyT:Â Yasuo’s Q and EQ AOEs are on the smaller side and he tends to focus on damaging individuals within fights (compared to Ziggs for example). One of the reason why his abilities are AOE is so that they can be dodged. Think about LeBlanc’s Distortion. It’s used as an AOE for farming, but in champion combat, she is generally concerned with hitting a single individual.
One of our goals with Yasuo is to integrate melee carries (I call them “light fighters”) into the group fight phase of the game. As Tryndamere, I tend to feel more at home split pushing. As Yasuo, I want to be with my team most of the time.
What I put here is based on info given by CertainlyT:
A projectile for the purposes of Wind Wall is a game object that lives in the world for some time moving along a pre-defined path. This all sounds complicated, but it tends to be much simpler in practice than in theory.
Varus basic attack is a missile. Kayle basic attack, not a missile. Ryze Q and E is a Missle. Ryze W is not.
Anything that Exists and travels (even if its VERY short) that isnt instant.
Preety much everyone AA that is Ranged can be blocked,Â Turrets shots wont. If i dont list the champ, its because they have nothing to be blocked. At the end of the list, i will place the “Mystery” ones which im uncertain off. Take into account some abilities are instant, and are thus not blocked ex (Annie’s W Ryze W ecs).Â Does not Block ChampionsÂ Ex (Malphite R, Tristana W, J4 EQ, Nocturne R, Fizz Q, Gragas E, Lee’s Q2)
AA mean (auto attack).
Edit: De-labeled Mystery abilities, since they have been confirmed.
Anivia Q, AA, E
Annie Q AA
Ashe AA, W, E, R
Brand QR AA
Caitlyn AA, Q, E, R
Cassiopia E AA
Chogath E’s passive
Corki Q,AA, R
Elise Q E AA (Human form)
Fiddlesticks E AA
Galio Q W
GankP Q (Parley)
Gragas Q(will stop where it contacts wall, still explodes) R
Graves Q W R (To clarify, will stop the ult projectile, wont stop the explosion if it already detonates) AA
Donger AA, Turret AA, Turret Lazer, W E
Janna AA, Q E
Jayce, range AA, Q
Jinx AA, W, R
Karma Q, AA
Katarina Q R
Kennen AA, Q
Kog Maw Q, AA, E
LeBlanc Q, E AA
Lee Sin Q1 E2
Lissandra Q E AA
Lucian W R AA
Lulu Q W AA
Lux Q W E AA
Malzahar AA Q
Maokai E (Saplings only will stop midair only, they will still land and explode)
Miss Fortune AA, Q, R
Morgana Q AA
Nami Q E R AA
Natilus Q E R
Nidalee Q AA
Orianna AA, Q (her ball comes to a stop when it hits the wall)
Quinn Q AA
Ryze AA, Q, E
Shaco E W(AA)
Sivir Q W AA
Swain E, R’s birds AA
Syndra E-Q, R AA
Talon W R
Teemo AA Q
Thresh Q W (Although ranged, his AA is not a Projectile)
Tristana E R AA
Twisted Fate AA, Q W
Twitch AA W
Urgot AA Q E
Varus AA Q W R
Vayne AA E
Veigar Q R AA
Viktor Q E R AA
Vladimir AA E
Xerath AA E
Zed Q W (Shadows stop moving forward when they contact the wall)
Ziggs Q W (midair) E AA
Zyra AA, Range Plant AA, Passive, E
Edit1: Update Lee sin, Lulu, Malzahar, Thresh from what CertainT said.
Explanation ofÂ MysteryÂ listed abilities:
A projectile for the purposes of Wind Wall is a game object that lives in the world for some time moving along a pre-defined path.
Note thatÂ missiles with extreme arcsÂ which take them off the screen, like Kog’Maw ult or Ziggs ult are unblockable, because they travel well over the wall.
Thus these are abilities that are kinda weird, they are projectiles, but need just a bit of Clarification on the following.
This list looks accurate. Everything you listed as a mysteryÂ is blockedÂ except Syndra W.
THE FOLLOWING DO GET BLOCKED
Non-Lethal projectiles: Projectiles that do not do Damage
Ex: Ashe E, Lux W, Zed’s W (Stops the ability in its tracks, dosent destroy the shadow)
Projectiles with an Arc: Adding to what certainT said, what clasifies as Extreme?
Ex: Gragas R, Namis Q, Viktor’s E, Varus’s W, Zigg’s W
“Hooking” Projectiles: Projectile that launches the champion to the targetÂ WHEN HIT
Ex: Amumu’s Q, Leona’s E, Natilus Q
Projectiles that travel through the Ground: Natilu’s R and E CertainT confirms these AbilitiesÂ AREÂ blocked
Thats what i can figure out from the explanation CertainT game me. Please give your opinion and bump the Thread – Thank you CertainT for your time.
What essentially happens to the Missle that is Blocked?
With Few exceptions, like Zeds W, Gragas Q, Ori’s Ball, Most missles areÂ DESTROYEDÂ and completelyÂ NULLIFIED. Even if they only Clip the edge of the wall.
Can it Block Nocturne’s R, Malphite R, X abilty that moves Champion?
NO. Champions arent missles. Anything that moves the champion wont get blocked, unless a skillshot is first required to land in order to reach the target (IE: Amumu Q, Leona E, Natilus Q)
Item Actives like DFG GUNBLADE?
They ARE missles, so in theory you should be able to block them giving you have ninja reaction times.
Abilities that extend out of a Champion, like Jarvan’s Q or Zac’s Q?
WONT GET BLOCKED, same way that Thresh’s AA, despite being ranged, wont get blocked
Jesus whats the CD on this thing?
Wind Wall at a 26/24/22/20/18 cooldown. The Wall currently lasts 3.75 seconds. Wall becomes LARGER as you level it up, similar to a Karthus Wall of Pain.
Does it Block Turrets?
No. Should/will block Donger Turrets or Shaco box AA
[SummonerMan Matt]Â Are self-jumps like Corki’s or Trist’s considered viable conditions?
Â Griftrix:Â Nah. Self jumps don’t count.
Â Â Griftrix:Â While those don’t count for the ability because they are self imposed, your logic is also flawed, because you can hit anyone during any knock up with a skill-shot.
[Maximum Zac] Do the small knockups from things like Powerball and Let’s Bounce count?
Â Â Griftrix:Â Confirming those don’t count. Has to be a negative status effect, not a self imposed part of an ability.
Â Â Griftrix:Â Oh, I’m sorry, I thought Rammus goes up a little when he hits someone, and when talking about lets bounce, I was thinking of Zac’s bouncing. Yeah, those tiny knockups might work. I haven’t explicitly checked though.
How did the Preseason changes affect utility Supports? How were they supposed to? Morello answers the community’s balance critiques.
Â Morello: Hey all,
While there’s a lot of discussion on the support topic, I want to consolidate some of it here.
First I’d like to share our thinking on this, directionally and strategically. I posted this in response to a post in the other thread as it’s a good starting point for a reasoned discussion on this:
I swear, you live to troll supports. Your messaging on supports has never not been “we love to nerf supports”, even when that’s not really what you’re doing.
I think this is a good design direction, but you’re going to have to find more impactful utility scaling knobs to turn than Lulu Q, Leona W, and Nami E.
I’m not really sold on the idea that supports need damage nerfs to acquire utility buffs. Supports already generally had weak scaling, and adding gold to the support role means that the gap between supports and better scaling classes is automatically widening.
The irony about this is that this is all intended to help support characters, specifically. The concerns and thoughts we have;
1) We want to avoid a world where mages invalidate supports. Again, we’ll be aggressive here. Maybe some other characters have too much (I tend to think so), maybe some mages go bottom too. Remember support gold is not equal to solo lane/farm gold, it’s just quite a bit more than “none.”
2) Support players have felt like their impact matters less, they have an imbalance of responsibility/rewards/success metrics. We think giving them access to the power growth tools (and not making them do “kill you” things to get it) is a big win for this.
3) We want to define supports as helpers and team-players first. This is pretty tough when you have 4 years of them being defined as ward bots with no gold. Tanks differ than fighters and have lower damage – edge cases like J4 do exist here too. Sona might just be a mage labelled as a support (as her power contribution is lane damage/late game CC) – if so, we’ll have to modify her to a damage-oriented scaling model or something. That is tunable, and this is not the last patch ever ever ever.
4) To make big changes like this is disruptive by its nature. Balance will be temporarily off. Expectations that we’ve had for characters will change. What will almost never result from fixing game problems is “we just gave you free power/buffs!” Those aren’t good solutions to what are systemic problems, but I feel that the expectation is that somehow (that applies to reworks and stuff, too).
This will be rough on launch – please go find abuse cases! Go try to do traditional support. Report your experience. We’ve cleared out our days to marathon a bit for less useful anecdotal evidence from our experiences. See what snaps that internal tests and a limited player pool can’t catch.
I think this disruption and uncertainty of the correctness of the details is more than worth the ability to bring supports into being first-class citizens with aÂ unique identity. It’s long overdue and is a pain that’s existed for a long time. Just because something being in a bad state is known and comfortable doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be taken somewhere better that is a bit frightening and unknown to people.
You keep saying its a tuning problem on the mage side.
That i understand. so why is their mage utility addressed in such a patch would be my question?
Because in our tests, they performed too poorly due to their utility being a little too low and their gold being a bit too low for real damage. That has to be proven true based on exact amounts, items that you need to get to access it, level disparity (This is important! Getting to 6 and 11 significantly later is a big cost for a mage) and other factors. It’s a very multi-threaded issue.
[AvidMind]Â Is the point of this to explain the issues of picking a utility support over a better-scaling AP mid?
Â Morello:Â My point to this is that it’s a tuning problem. We see characters who have utility and low damage (tanks) picked over characters who have some utility and more damage (Fighters) in the jungle when both are available. There’s likely balance things to fix here (the Orianna and Anivia callouts are an example) where this runs risk, or that the new support scaling get significantly more utility.
What issue do you hope to resolve with these changes?
Â Morello: This isn’t to fix balance – it’s to fix the problem that supports have to be everyone’s ***** to be successful.
How can Sona have a 56% win rate and feel bad? Or Janna a 55% and nerfs are met with religious fervor saved for weak characters? How can we see pro games where the best support player has a pair of boots and expect that to be satisfying?
That’s the problem we’re looking to solve here.
[0xiDIzE]Â Why these changes are a positive for the League
For once, I tend to agree wholeheartedly with the direction that Riot is taking with changes. Specifically on the subject of supports and support scaling.
I think the vast majority of criticism and negativity surrounding this comes from the fact that people were expecting direct buffs to supports as a class/role, without considering the incredible impact that would have on the game and balance.
People are also looking at changes to individual champions and immediately crying “nerfs!” They aren’t looking at the changes as a whole. Not only are supports gaining an actual gold stream, they won’t be forced to spend it all on wards. Not only are new items being added that give supports extra duties, the game flow is being changed in such a manner that mid and late game will matter enough for these items to also matter.
Â Morello:Â Exactly. I think this expectation from supports being unsatisfying for so long has a lot to do with this, and that the fear of the AP mage coming in and invalidating this class of character. The latter is not an OK result – there’s nothing I can shout from the rooftop more.
[Mynt]Â So healing is still a gameplay problem in lane?
Â Morello:Â This has not been addressed – I agree. Luckily, not all support = healer. This is an unresolved issue that needs to be dealt with.
[Sophitia]Â What are were intentions with this Preseason?
Â Morello:Â With preseason, we focus a lot on making really disruptive changes – the conversation here is that we’ve just irrevocably ruined the support class, which I don’t think out history has shown at all. It’s important to us that all six classes of characters have valid places in League, and our preseason traction has historically been good (there’s no League of X in the real season, right?)
[Sophitia]Â Isn’t a core issue with utility supports the fact that they can’t match a mage’s damage output?
Â Morello:Â It might be true that they need better sustained lane damage, less late-game. Definitely a possibility. And I think we do have to look at the strong damage + utility mages with this.
[OJ191]Â Why did you nerf every aspect of Soraka’s kit?
Â Morello:Â The passive adds a lot of in-fight power if you use it well, though could have been overzealous from testing results. Soraka is a unique snowflake of weird stuff overall, so this one being off wouldn’t surprise me (how to fix dedicated healer…)
Passive now reads: “All of Kennen’s abilities now add a mark of the storm” instead of every tooltip saying that the ability “adds a mark of the storm”
Kennen’s Mark of the Storm ( passive ) now lasts 6.25 seconds up from 6.
Â Â Â Â Leona
Solar Flare ( R )
Mana cost reduced from 100/150/200 to 100 at all ranks
Â Â Master Yi
Meditate ( W )
Mana cost lowered from 50/65/80/95/110 to 50 at all ranks
Â Â Morgana
Tormented Soil ( W ) Â
Now reads “Curses an area for 5 seconds. Enemies on the cursed ground take magic damage equal to 20/32.5/45/57.5/70 (+0.2) plus 3/3/3/3/3% of their missing Health (capped at 80/80/80/80/80 versus minions and monsters) every second.”
Damage lowered from 25/40/55/70/85 to 20/32.5/45/57.5/70
No longer grants MR reduction
Now does 3% missing HP every second.
Â Â Â Â Â Â Shen
Shadow Dash ( E )
Range increased from 575 to 600Â ( seeÂ thisÂ for more info ).
Â Â Â Â Soraka
Wish ( R )
Mana cost reduced from 100/175/250 to 100 at all ranks
Cooldown now only reduced when Tryndamere crits champions instead of anything.
Â Â Â Â Â Viktor
Chaos Storm ( R )
Mana cost reduced from 125/175/225 to 100 at all ranks
Â Â Â Xerath
Overwhelming Power ( Passive )
Xerath gains % magic penetration ( 4% at level 4/5/6, 5% at 7, 6% at 8/9, 7% at 10, 9% at 11, 10% at 12, 12% at level 13 , 14% at 14, 16% at 15, 19% at 16, 22% at 17. and 26% at 18 )
Every 10 seconds, Xerath’s next basic attack restores 4% of his maximum mana. Attacking an emey champion restores 3x that amount instead.
Arcanopulse ( Q )
Mana cost: 70/80/90/100/110 || Cooldown: Â 7/6.5/6/5.5/5 seconds
Xerath charge and then fires a beam of energy, dealing 70/110/150/190/230 ( +.85 AP ) magic damage to all enemies hit. Charging the spell increases it’s range.
Cosmic Strike Â ( W )
Cooldown: 14/13/12/11/10 seconds || Mana cost: 100/110/120/130/140
Xerath calls down a blast of arcane energy, dealing 50/85/120/155/190 ( +.6 AP ) magic damage to all enemies within the target area, slowing them by 10% for 3 seconds. Enemies in the center of the blast take 60% extra damage and are slowed by 35% instead.
Spellshere ( E )
Mana cost: 60/65/70/75/80 || Cooldown: 13/12.5/12/11.5/11
Xerath unleases and orb of rraw magic, dealing 100/140/180/220/260 ( .6 AP ) magic damage. The orb explodes on contact, stunning it’s target for 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds.
Ascension ( R )
Xerath ascends to his true form, briefly gaining arcane vision of a large area around himself. He becomes rooted in place and his basic abilities are disabled, but he gains 4 shots of very long distance magic artillery. Fire these shots off with left or right mouse button. The effect lasts up to 7 seconds or until deactivated.
While Ascension is active, Xerath takes 10/20/30% less damage. He cannot be moved by displacement effects, but they briefly stun him.
Xerath bombards a target area with explosive energy, dealing 150/200/250 ( .45 AP ) magic damage to all enemies hit.
Mana Cost: 100/150/200
Â Â Â Â Â Ziggs
Mega Inferno Bomb ( R )
Now deals double damage to minions.
Â Â Â Â Â Â Zyra
Deadly Bloom ( Q )
Range reduced from 825 to 800
Rampant Growth ( W )
Range increased from 825 to 850
Passive cooldown reduction reduced from 4/8/12/16/20% to 2/4/6/8/10%
Dominion / Crystal Scar
The global buff NO LONGER reduces self-healing/regen by 20%.
General Item Changes
Combine cost increased by 100g – total cost now 950
Due to above change, price of ALLÂ KINDLEGEMÂ build paths increased by 100g – Zeke’s, Spirit Visage, Spirit of Ancient Golem, Shurelya’s Rev.
Crystal Scar and Twisted Treeline Item Changes
Â Grez’s Spectral Lantern
Attack damage reduced from 20 to 15
Cost increased by 200
Total costÂ from 2425 from 2425 to 2125
Damage decreased from 50 to 20
Armor increased from 20 to 25
Lifesteal increased from 12% to 15%
Now grants 200 hp
Pickaxe in item recipe replaced with Ruby Crystal
Twin ShadowsÂ ( changes compared to the SR version )
Cost reduced by 200
Ability power lowered from 40 to 30
MR lowered to 30 from 40
Cooldown lowered to 60 seconds from 120 seconds
Total cost increased from 1920 to 2300
AP lowered from 50 to 40
Health reduced from 300 to 250
Cooldown reduction increased from 10% to 20% and is no longer Unique
10% Movement speed bonus removed
Now builds out of a Fiendish Codex instead of Two Amplifying Tomes
Summary:Â Charm has had its mana cost changed to a flat amount at all levels (higher at lower levels, lower at max level), but now increases the magic damage Ahri deals to the target. Essence Theft now heals her for a specific amount based on the number of enemies she hits with her passive-enhanced spell, as opposed to getting straight spell vamp. Fox Fire now deals less damage when every wisp hits the same target, and now counts as an area-of-effect damage source for the purposes of Spell Vamp and Rylai’s Crystal Scepter. Spirit Rush’s base damage and AP ratios have been reduced in addition to having its use time limit reduced.
Context:Â Ahri is a champion with a lot of strengths and few weaknesses – given her high versatility and reliability, she can regularly apply a lot of general pressure upon her opponents from relative safety. Ahriâ€™s strengths should be much better defined than they currently are. These changes give Ahri players (and her opponents) clear areas of mastery that differentiate the good Ahris from the great Ahris (heh). Our core focuses are:
Make Ahriâ€™s default lane patterns more clear, so both Ahri and her opponents can make plays around them.
Make Ahriâ€™s â€œall inâ€ gameplay more closely tied with landing Charm to establish Charm as Ahriâ€™s â€œkiss of deathâ€ that needs to be avoided, as well as lower her threat/presence while Charm is on cooldown.
Keep Ahriâ€™s core gameplay intact while trimming away strength from the low-gameplay patterns that donâ€™t feel cunning.
Â Â Â Corki
Summary:Â Corki’s base attack speed has been reduced. Additionally, Missile Barrage’s base damage has been reduced at earlier ranks while the cooldown between missile shots has been increased. The cooldown between missile shots can no longer be reduced by cooldown reduction, but CDR will still affect how quickly you can gain missile ammo.
Context:Â Overall, we like the direction we pushed Corki toward with Trinity Force, but he’s now too overwhelming to play against. Here we’re reducing excess power in a few areas: by reducing his base attack speed, this puts him more in line with other similar spell-based ADCs. Reducing Missile Barrage’s base damage at early levels will help tone down Corki’s currently overwhelming level 6 power spike. Finally, the increase of the cooldown between missile shots ensures Missile Barrage is a powerful sustained damage tool, rather than a burst damage source.
Base Attack Speed reduced
Missile Barrage ( R )
Base damage reduced at earlier ranks
Cooldown between missile shots increased
Cooldown between missile shots can no longer be reduced by Cooldown Reduction (Cooldown Reduction still affects how quickly you gain missile ammo)
Â Jarvan IV
Context:Â This change forces Jarvan to be more accurate with his Demacian Standard / Dragon Strike combo while giving opponents some breathing room when trying to dodge it.
Context:Â Similar to the mana cost changes we’ve made to other higher skill ultimates, Leona’s next in line.
Solar Flare ( R )
Mana cost reduced to a flat amount at all levels (significantly lower than max level mana costs)
Â Â Master Yi
Context:Â Our original reasons for having Meditate’s mana cost scale so high no longer exist anymore, as they more specifically referred to AP Yi bullying lanes, or meditate refreshing multiple times in a fight.
Meditate ( W )
Mana cost reduced to a flat amount at all levels (significantly lower than max level mana costs)
Â Â Morgana
Summary:Â Tormaneted Soil no longer reduces magic resistance per tick, instead it deals additional damage based on an enemy’s missing health. Morgana should deal roughly the same amount of overall damage, although there will be variations due to how her new Tormented Soil works.
Context:Â This change is more of a modernization for Morgana’s Tormented Soil by rewarding her for being continuously aggressive with landing her Dark Bindings. Specifically we wanted to to reinforce Morgana’s standard damage combo of Dark Binding to Tormented Soil, rather than the “ideal” combo of using Tormented Soil’s magic resistance reduction to make Dark Binding deal more damage.
Â Tormented Soil ( W )
No longer applies a Magic Resist reduction debuff
Base damage per second decreased slightly (to accomodate other changes)
Additionally deals a percentage of an enemy’s missing Health as magic damage every second (capped at a flat amount versus minions and monsters)
Damage application cadence increased
Credits to SkinSpotlights
Â Â Rengar
Context:Â Rengar’s leap out of stealth has insufficient warning for his target, so we changed him to destealth at the beginning of his leap instead of throughout its duration in order to give his target a fighting chance.
Thrill of the hunt ( R )
Rengar now de-stealths at the beginning of his leap when attacking a target from out of invisibility.
Â Â Â Â Shen
Context:Â Shadow Dash has had a fairly large start and end radius to make the spell more forgiving to land. We no longer believe this is necessary as it makes Shadow Dash a bit too easy to land in those situations.
Shadow Dash ( E )
Collision radius has been reduced at the start and end points of the dash
Â Â Â Soraka
Context:Â Similar to the Leona change which is similar to the previous mana cost changes. At this point I may just say Wish’s mana cost is too damn high.
Wish ( R )
Mana cost reduced to a flat amount at all levels (significantly lower than max level mana costs)
Â Â Â Â Â Swain
Summary:Â Carrion Renewal now restores a percentage of Swain’s maximum mana on champion kill/assist rather than a flat amount. This will allow him to keep up his mana pools in lategame team fights.
Context:Â Despite being a champion that’s hard to stop when ahead, Swain players often find themselves failing endgame in a situation where they would otherwise succeed due to the unforgivable nature of Ravenous Flock’s mana ramp. We saw Carrion Renewal as a place to add strength without significantly impacting the phases of the game where Swain already excels. With this change, it’s possible for Swain players that focus on mana and durability to ‘off-tank’ during team-fights, utilizing the significant mana return from champion kills/assists to stay in engagements longer.
Carrion Renewal ( Passive )
Now additionally restores a percentage of Swain’s maximum mana on Champion Kill/Assist
Â Â Â Syndra
Summary:Â Syndra has had a number of useability improvements made to her abilities, where Scatter the Weak now indicates where a Dark Sphere will travel, and Unleashed Power will indicate how many Dark Spheres will be fired.
Scatter the Weak( E )
Range minorly increased
Dark Spheres now have arrow indicators to show the direction they will travel if hit by Scatter the Weak
Unleashed Power ( R )
Now has a counter over the icon that tracks the number of Dark Spheres that will be fired
Â Â Teemo
Noxious Trap ( R )
Fixed a bug where Noxious Traps gave experience on death
Context:We are trying to reduce the mobility of Tryndamere so he can’t just safely split push all day. We did, however, want to keep his mobility high in team fights, so we made Spinning Slash only reduce in cooldown when he critically strikes champions.
Spinning Splash ( E )
Cooldown now only reduced when Tryndamere crits champions instead of anything.
Â Â Â Â Viktor
Context:Â Similar to the Soraka change, which was similar to the Leona change, which was similar to the…
Chaos Storm ( R )
Mana cost reduced to a flat amount at all levels (significantly lower than max level mana costs)
Â Â Vladimir
Hemoplague ( R )
Fixed a bug where this ability sometimes prevented casting of Transfusion and Tides of Blood for longer than the spell’s 0.5 second cast animation.
Â Â Â Â Â Ziggs
Summary:Â Short Fuse has had its damage increased slightly. Bouncing Bomb can be cast at targets outside of max range but will only travel the set distance. Satchel Charge’s radius has been increased. Hexplosive Minefield and Mega Inferno Bomb are both more effective against minions, with Minefield not dealing decreased damage on multiple hits to minions and Mega Inferno Bomb dealing double damage to minions.
Context:Â We’ve improved Ziggs in terms of general utility while also trying to carve out his niche as a pushing / counterpushing champion more effectively. In this regard a lot of our changes are focused on the damage he deals to minions, but we’ve made some general damage buffs overall.
Short Fuse( Passive )
Max damage increased
Bouncing Bomb( Q )
Bouncing Bomb can now be cast at targets outside of 850 range
When cast outside of max range will fire in the direction but only travel 850 range
Satchel Charge ( W )
Hexplosive Minefield( E )
Does not do decreased damage on multiple hits to minions
Damage radius per mine increased
Mega Inferno Bomb ( R )
Now deals double damage to minions
Â Â Â Â Â Â Zyra
Summary:Â Deadly Bloom’s damage has been reduced but her AP ratio has been increased. Rampant Growth’s passive cooldown reduction and range have been increased. The plants spawned from Rampant Growth have had their base damage reduced, but their base damage at later levels has been increased. We’ve also improved Zyra’s overall useability with enraging plants / transforming seeds into plants by spells.
Context:Â Our overall strategy here was to tone down Zyra’s early level poke damage and, while we are reducing some of her overall power, we also wanted to improve her ability to fluidly combo cast with seeds. Additionally, reducing the base damage of her spells while increasing the AP ratios are aimed at reducing her power as a support without hurting her capabilities as a mage.
Deadly Bloom( Q )
Range minorly reduced
AP ratio increased
Rampant Growth ( W )
Passive cooldown reduced
Plant base damage reduced at lower levels and increased at higher levels
Reduced the delay before seeds can be stepped on by enemies
Range minorly increased
Fixed a bug where seeds would very sometimes not be turned into plants by spells
Stranglethorns ( R )
Stun no longer persists for some duration after the knockup ends.
Now properly enrages plants created within the bramble zone after Stranglethorns has been cast
Screen Tint for Stealth
– We’ve added a self-only screen tint when your champion is in stealth for Akali, Kha’Zix, Le Blanc, Shaco, Talon, Teemo, Twitch, Vayne and Wukong.
Attack Speed Slows
Summary:Â Unless an attack speed slow was attached to a movement impairing effect (IE: Nasus’ Wither), it was immune to cleanse or other forms of debuff removal. Now all attack speed slows can be cleansed and are treated like movement speed slows.
Context:Â Attack speed slows have been updated in order to have more consistent counterplay when it comes to their removal and application. Essentially we’re looking to treat all slows the same, whether they’re movement or attack speed based.
Malphite – Ground Slam
Gragas – Barrel Roll
Champions with CC-discarding ultimates:
Summary:Â The following champions will now be affected by crowd control abilities after they complete their dashes, where previously they discarded all forms of crowd control at the end. Their spells will still be unstoppable, but any crowd control abilities landed throughout will be applied after the spell completes. CC duration will tick down while a champion is mid-dash.
Context:Â We’re adding more counterplay for champions who have long-range dashes tied to their ultimates by making them succeptible to certain forms of crowd control after they complete a dash – like snares or stuns. Now if a teammate lands a snare in the middle of a champion’s dash, the ulting champion will complete the ability, but they’ll be snared at the end.
[Eludeasaurus] Aren’t 7 seconds too short for several combo rotations?
ricklessabandon: Numbers will be easier to talk about once she’s playable, but the 7 seconds is still a very wide windowâ€”you can do all three dashes, Orb of deception, and Fox-fire within the 4-second window of Charm’s damage amp. Going by our tests so far, 7 seconds is quite comfortable even if you want to space dashes out for Lich Bane procs (for example).
If anyone feels like this reduction cripples a certain playstyle, i’m interested in hearing about it.
ricklessabandon: I currently associate ‘multiple rotations within an ult’ with Ahri’s patterns later in the game (once fox-fire is maxed out), but let’s keep an eye on this together â€” I’ll be spectating/playing games and taking feedback, you guys play her a bit on the PBE and give feedback. if this hurts a healthy playstyle of Ahri’s (and i think that her kiting patterns are healthy) then i’m happy to tune/revert this change. :3
ricklessabandon: I understand the apprehension of time pressure here, but my feeling is that Ahri players won’t feel this much at all (I’ll definitely be watching for it though). The goal here was alleviate some of the idle pressure Ahri exerts when taking no action after her initial ult cast. Iin other words, once Ahri uses her first dash her opponents are forced to change their behavior/mentality in response while considering her likely next actions. Currently this lasts up to 10 seconds, which is a respectable amount of power from passivity.
[FromTXwithLove] What are the numbers behind the new Fox-fire?
ricklessabandon: A ‘3-hit against one guy’ Fox-fire now does 80% of the old damage without Charm, and 96% of the old damage with, so not quite as drastic as 40% but it is noticeable. one cool thing about maxing Fox-fire first now is that the healing from Essence Theft isn’t based on spell damage, so you can still get big heals from using Orb of deception on a full minion wave even if your primary damage spell is Fox-fire. so, the spell lost a bit of its best-case intense pressure damage in exchange for a better healing pattern. I encourage you to try it out and let me know how it plays out. :3
Level 6 Burst Chart
ricklessabandon: Oh, btw, for those interested in her damage comparisons to other magic damage mages and/or assassins, here’s some really basic comparisons for approximate level 6 damage:
These changes would put her â€˜almost perfect all-inâ€™ at level 6 at 454 (+204%AP) without landing Charm, and the â€˜perfect all-inâ€™ at 587 (+273%AP) when landing Charm. Both include Both hits from Q, all 3 hits from W, and 3 hits from R onto the desired target.
AnnieÂ – 465 (+215% AP) [this does not include any damage from Molten Shield or Tibbers’s aura]
FizzÂ – 420 (+305% AP) (+4% Missing Health)
KassadinÂ – 350 (+250% AP) [this is with one Nether Blade attack and a zero-stack Riftwalk]
LissandraÂ – 435 (+255% AP)
LuxÂ – 650 (+205% AP) [this includes one instance of Illumination popped by R and one instance popped by a basic attack]
SyndraÂ – 570 (+230% AP) [this is with zero additional Dark Spheres on Unleashed Power]
Again, the comparisons are super basic so they’re just a loose reference. the numbers don’t mean anything on their own, but might help out people who aren’t familiar with damage levels get a sense of what to expect when they first play against her. sometimes it’s easy to lose track of numbers given there are so many being thrown around.
[Quintessence] Isn’t it highly unlikely for Fox-fire to hit the same target more than twice?
ricklessabandon: If that’s true, that just makes the new Ahri better by comparison since the newer damage reduction values would be less of a factor. For example, if players generally only ever hit one Fox-fire against their intended target, the Ahri changes would leave Fox-fire at 100% of the damage without Charm, and 120% of the damage with Charm (a straight buff).
[Avalon Bright] But the overall damage would still be less, because it’s a decrease
ricklessabandon: If you hit with two Fox-fires, you’re doing ~86% of the old damage without Charm, and 104% of the old damage with Charm. Basically, multi-hit damage without Charm was very intentionally nerfed, and multi-hit damage with Charm is around the same amount of damage (+/- depending on one extra hit or two).
[konfetarius] Won’t these changes make Ahri much weaker when fighting bruisers?
ricklessabandon: Thanks for this – I’ll chat with manwolfaxeboss about these changes in detail. Insight into how she plays on Summoner’s Rift and/or Twisted Treeline is super valuable, so please feel free to post more if you get a chance to play her on the PBE.
[Kandyvag] Will Charm amplify damage from items such as DFG?
ricklessabandon: Ahri’s Charm amplifies all of her magic damage, so items like DFG, Lich Bane, Liandry’s torment, etc all deal 20% more damage. In regards to Doom (DFG’s debuff): Charm does stack with Doom, so Ahri’s magic damage will be increased by 44% against that unfortunate target afflicted by both.
How does the new healing value compare to the old one?
ricklessabandon: Old values on a wave of 6 minions (assuming you hit each twice) would be something closer to:
~55 + ~46% ap @ rank 1 (level 1)
~194 + ~46% ap @ rank 5 (level 9)
New values would be:
36 + 108% ap @ rank 1 (level 1)
132 + 108% ap @ rank 5 (level 9)
Going off of that, the break-even point for Orb of deception at level 9 is 100 ability powerâ€”anything past that and the new passive is healing for more.
Â Was Ahri nerfed because of DFG?
ricklessabandon: To be honest, I really don’t mind Ahri using DFG. I’ve been a fan of her assassin playstyle for a while (it was fairly common in OGN back when Jayce and Twisted Fate were perma-banned so i’ve seen it a lot), and i’m fine with the trade-offs she makes by rushing the item. I’m not saying that the item itself is perfect and/or immune to scrutiny, but I am saying that there isn’t some sort of magic combination of Ahri + DFG that needs to be broken up. the changes i’ve planned out for her are meant to work well both with and without Deathfire Grasp in her inventory.
Isn’t this forcing an assassin-playstyle from Ahri players?
ricklessabandon: There are some specifics in the replies below, but forcing/favoring assassin Ahri isn’t in line with the goals I’ve laid out and I currently don’t think that the assassin play patterns are actually favored over her other styles (again, pending a couple of changes I mention below). as I’ve mentioned in previous posts in this thread, I’m interested in hearing out any concerns about specific playstyles that may be crippled by my changes.
Are you nerfing her passive?
ricklessabandon: There’s a bit of math behind this of course, but the changes to the passive with the current numbers are currently an overall buff with a focus on the late game. Two major factors here are the the new passive isn’t affected by the opponent’s magic resist (which matters more later in the game) and that the heal’s base amount comes from champion levels instead of ability rank.
[iYumSoup] Why was Fox-fire changed to an AoE spell?
ricklessabandon: So, part of the reasoning for this change was that the initial impetus to tag the spell as single-target was for the interaction with her passive. since the passive was reworked, the need for the change went away and we were left with a spell that just broke the rules for no reason. After reading several posts responding to the change though, I feel like a better course of action is to fully support this interaction and call it out in the tooltip (i.e., allow it to be more effective with rylai’s crystal scepter) and keep it as a standard consideration for Ahri’s balance state.
[PeachsProperty] Are we forced to hit Charm to do damage?
ricklessabandon: That depends on your play patterns. If your damage pattern was something like hit a few times with orb of deception to get your targets low before diving in for the kill, then these changes will have less of an effect on you since Orb of deception’s damage wasn’t changed. If your pattern was more about roaming and picking off lone enemies as an opportunist, then you’ll likely need to land Charm (and your opponent should have this in mind and be trying to play around it).
[Vemon] Will Charm not increase bonus true damage?
ricklessabandon: That’s currently correct, though to be honest i’d prefer if it could amp true damage portion of Orb of deception as well. When i first thought about it, allowing this interaction would mean either allowing it to affect things like Ignite, or making a weird special case that we’d have to call out in the tooltip. Initially I was’t too thrilled about either to be honest, but reading some of the responses I’m convinced i should at least get the latter to the PBE for feedback.
[Lichblade] Why is Ahri getting nerfed when there are other top-tier assassins to fix, too?
ricklessabandon: Quick reply to this since i’ve seen it pop up a lot in this thread: the team felt it was best to look at the ‘top-tier assassins’ as a set, and as such will have changes for Ahri, Fizz, Kassadin, and Zed in the 3.13 patch (assuming plans don’t change). I specifically went out of the way to make sure Ahri’s changes would be among the first to go on the PBE since I really wanted as much time as possible for tuning and gathering feedback given my desire to start with aggressive changes and work back from there. Anyway, that’s why everyone has seen Ahri’s changes in isolation and why i’ve been eager to hear from everyone. :3
Also, while I sincerely appreciate the posts everyone has taken the time to write (whether passionate or stoic), I would like to kindly ask that everyone respect each other and refrain from hostilitiesâ€”it really makes everything a lot easier if the atmosphere is one of collaboration and civil discussion.
Off-topic: Any changes to Kassadin to look forward to in Patch 3.13?
ricklessabandon: Sure thing. I handed off the Kass changes to another member of the team â€” Ahri demanded quite a bit of time and i wouldn’t have had enough time to properly work on Kass as well as both Ahri and Morgana. Current plan is still ‘Kassadin changes in 3.13’ (last I checked) so unless that changes you guys should get more info on that really soon.
[NEGITIVITY] So Ahri’s overall power is in a good spot, but she brings little room for counter-play because of guaranteed damage?
ricklessabandon: i mostly agree with your sentiments here. the part i would change is that i believe it’s not the ‘overall’ power that’s in a good place exactly, but more her highs and her lows. as an ahri player, one generally feels like the actions they take have appropriate rewards/penalties. in fact, her kit feels so fair (generally speaking) that an item like deathfire grasp seems almost criminal by comparison (and again, i don’t think it’s problematic with ahri). echoing your mention of the kit being ‘overbearing,’ one of the issues ahri’s playstyle has is that her highs are available very frequently. my changes aim to address that, with a few other goals in mind as mentioned in the first post.
Will this just kill Ahri’s viability?
ricklessabandon: This is not meant to be a kill order on Ahri. The goal isn’t to make her play rate to dropâ€”it’s awesome seeing her in games and personally speaking I would be super sad if her play rate suffered. Point being that I totally understand where everyone is coming from when they post in this thread.
Â Heimerdinger has been reworked! What can the man in charge of this update tell us about his new kit?
Are there any plans to rework his passive?
20thCenturyFaux: The passive is a bit trickier. I tried some spicy passive ideas, but it always meant compromising on the complexity/power of the other spells–people only have so much attention they can pay, and if the passive is taxing mindshare that could be going to turrets, I get a lot less comfortable.
There’s always more work that can be done, and if an awesome + simple + low power passive idea comes out of PBE I’ll jump on it instantly ^^
[DaethFang] Will Heimer get a VU to go with his new kit?
20thCenturyFaux: Model is unchanged, he has a huge amount of new particles that I made. I hope you guys like them! Also, particle feedback is very much welcome, because I made them I have free reign to fiddle with them.
20thCenturyFaux: Thereâ€™s a couple things in particular Iâ€™d like folks to watch out for: I just added a hit-confirm sound that plays for Heimerdinger only, even if heâ€™s off screen, to let him know when his turrets are shooting a champion. It should help him use them as wards and let him know how his turrets are doing in a cluttered teamfight, but I have some fear it might be annoying. I borrowed a sound from Katarina for the prototypeâ€”if it proves to be awesome, Iâ€™ll get a Heimerdinger sound for it, otherwise Iâ€™ll just kill it.
The other thing is a squirrely bug with RQ where the turret shoots an ice ball instead of its cool projectile and bugs out when its duration expires. Quite nasty, actuallyâ€”it creates a zombie turret that does no damage but slows people, is invincible, and lasts forever. I really hope this is fixed, but if you see it, please let me know!
[ParaBellam]Â Any changes to his base stats?
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â I fiddled some with his base stats, but mainly to make his autoattack feel more like a wrench. There are some other minor changes, but nothing as drastic as tankiness / speed.
[emTmyclipin2u]Â Did you remove Heimer’s ability to heal Towers?
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â I actually used to do this on live. In my personal experience, it was really awesome to leave a turret at full, but the whole time you spent sitting under it to actually do it was some of the least fun ever. What’s more the power of healing a turret is pretty marginal–you spend 2 minutes patching it up, then an ADC takes all the hp away with one auto.
Xypherous removed it for much the same reasons, and I 100% think that was the right call, haha. Healing towers sounds so good on paper but actually doing it sucks pretty bad imo.
[sleepisdeath]Â How did you decide to rework Heimerdinger?
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â The fear, you have no idea the fear. Reworks have had a rough ride for a while now, I was so scared I was putting my face into a pile of spiders by taking on the Dinger rework, but it had to be done. He was one of the first champs I bought, and I got my UFO Corki the old-fashioned way. He has such potential and it sat there for so long. Just because Karma went bad doesn’t mean Dinger will, and at the end of the day, I get to work for Riot–what business do I have being afraid of torches and pitchforks? Who am I to let a champion suffer because I’m afraid the forums will rip me apart? It was time, the dinger had to be raised, and that was that.
[exec3] Does magic penetration work apply to turrets?
20thCenturyFaux: Magic pen works on turrets, and Rylai’s / Liandri’s / Spellvamp works on turret beams but not turret autoattacks.
[Fomorian27] Are the lasers modifiable by CDR?
20thCenturyFaux: The beam cooldown is indeed modified by CDR. They fire on their own or when Heimerdinger attacks someone / hits them with a grenade, but will attempt to save their beam for champions or if they feel threatened by a creep wave. Whether the beams fire in sync is mainly about when they get triggered.
[kavi]Â Can Syndra still throw Heimer’s turrets?
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â I had to mark so many “Syndra can throw heimer turrets” bugs as “working as intended”, you have no idea hahahaha
If we find out it really sucks I can do something about it, but where I stand now it seems to me that Syndra tossing turrets is awesomer than hellÂ Â . It only really hurts Heimer if he doesn’t have other options, but I think we’ve done a good job of making sure he has tons and tons of options with this rework.
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â I actually scripted this but then reverted it. I can put it back in with the flip of a switch if it turns out to suck too much for Heimer :3
[ParaBellam]Â Is the turret AI better?
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â The turret AI is much more sophisticated. If there’s interest I’ll do a bigger post on it later, but for now I haven’t got time xD
[Paradoof]Â Will his turret get more resistances/health than before?
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â Yes.
[Paradoof]Â Are his rank up effects like AoE damage and Magic Resist shred still there?
Â 20thCenturyFaux: No.
[Paradoof]Â Do turrets still have increased attack speed for a few seconds after placing them?
Â 20thCenturyFaux: No.
[Arc insanity]Â Does the turrets’ spellvamp heal Heimer or them?
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â The spellvamp heals Heimerdinger, and turret resistances scale with Heimerdinger’s level.
[Arc insanity]Â How are the new turrets in terms of tankiness?
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â Turret resistances scale with Heimerdinger’s level.
[Clouds Chocobo]Â What are the new additions to the turrets?
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â Oh man you have no idea. They have so much crazy particle stuff I don’t even know.
Basically they have a Thresh lantern type timer that shows when they will decay, a Heimerdinger-only range indicator so you can see their autoattack circles and make cool patterns with them etc, an ammo indicator on Heimer, a particle that shows the ammo being spent when they’re placed, a targeting laser that fires before the beam does, and a sound that plays for Heimer even if you’re not near them if they’re fighting a champ (so you can use them as wards, keep track of them in teamfights, etc).
Incidentally, just want to reiterate that I added the sound thing late yesterday so it might suck. Feedback pls!
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â I forgot to mention that turrets display their beam charge as their resource bar, it builds till full based on your CDR and can fire when max :3
Do the rockets damage in an AoE or just the first enemy hit?
20thCenturyFaux: Yep, the rockets are first enemy hit.
[emTmyclipin2u] Why is the mana cost so high?
20thCenturyFaux: W does have an unusually large mana cost. I went with that because it still has pretty huge range, and Q only costs 20 mana–the large cost on W serves to both keep Heimer sane in lane and to make sure he still values mana later on.
[IS11d6327cb35cafc124891]Â This new version of Heimer’s Rockets seems underwhelming
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â Hehehe, it’s easy to underestimate it, but the slow is nothin’ to sneeze at–and more importantly, when you catch someone inside the turret nest but don’t hit the stun, they still get CC’d in a way that makes the turrets punish them more. On top of that, the slow/stun paradigm lets Heimerdinger follow up with skillshot rockets in a way blind doesn’t. All the power on E is loaded into its core function, so it lacks the extra features the other spells have.
That said, this is PBE! We’ll find out what works or not by people playing, and we can change stuff accordingly ^^
[exec3] Why wasn’t the original idea for Heimerdinger’s R+Q implemented (instantly places all turrets up to cap)
20thCenturyFaux: I quite liked the idea of Xypherous’s RQ, but it meant Heimerdinger had no ultimate turret to use in cases where he already did have his three turrets out. The big turret doesn’t count against the turret limit, but it’s still rowdy enough to work in the “caught outside the nest” case, so it’s my hope that it’s the same thing but better ^^
[Paradoof] Does the bigger turret from his ult disappear after its duration is over?
20thCenturyFaux: It disappears, but does not count toward the 3 turret max while it’s around.
[Paradoof] Can you get 3 beams out of a single enchanted turret with enough CDR?
20thCenturyFaux: Turrets start with something like 70% beam charge, so at the moment it’s two beams max, but only time and playtesting will tell!
[sleepisdeath] How does Ult + E work?
20thCenturyFaux: If H is Heimerdinger and O is grenade detonation, it’s like
H —–> O->O->O
and it damages and slows or stuns the things it hits. You can be CC’d more than once by it, but you only take damage once since damage is the other spells’ job.
[Mormondekaiser]Â Why was the passive bonus CDR removed?
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â Cooldown was an interesting point. I frequently found myself considering putting it back on to make his amount of turrets out more consistent, but at the end of the day, the same reasoning as the passive prevailed: I can’t justify putting power into something that’s invisible because I want all the power on the cool Heimer-specific things. Everyone gets CDR, but only Heimer gets turrets.
[Quintessence]Â Why did you take the Karma route with Heimer’s ult?
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â It’s actually quite a bit different from Karma. Heimer’s cooldown is much higher and he doesn’t get it until 6, which lets me make it far, far more powerful. Karma essentially can weave a big version of a normal spell in with her combo, whereas Heimerdinger can choose one of three ultimate spells at a normal ult cooldown.
[Zerglinator]Â So this new ultimate is like Katarina’s old W?
Â 20thCenturyFaux:Â Yea, I could see that. Three choices instead of two, and huge UPGRADE!!!s instead of little boostsÂ . I never noticed the similarity, hehe.
For example, the RQ turret just rips people apart if they stay by it, and RW can 70-0 someone if they stay put for the whole thing.
[de Dust]Â Does he still walk with the swagger?
20thCenturyFaux: VERY YES. It is a sin against Heimerdinger to even contemplate adjusting his swagger.
Relaunch Team Secret Texture Upgrade Ninja Initiative #1: Successful!
Why wasn’t this update announced earlier?
IronStylus: The texture updates are really a result of our dedicated 3D artists taking some time to give champions who don’t need an overhaul some love. You’ll most likely see more of these sneaking in here and there. We don’t want to make too much of a big deal because they’re more like us doing polish work and cleaning house rather than doing something that needs big fanfare like a complete VU.
[exec3] Does this mean Rammus won’t need a VU in the future?
IronStylus: Good question. Honestly, I was surprised how fairly solid our little Armordillo is. In this case, a little polish went a long way. I personally see these adjustments as what’s needed for Rammus as he stands. There’s no giant theme shift he needs, there’s no changing gameplay that needs to be visually represented, he just needs cleanup. Maybe in the future, if some compelling situation arises, we might shift him, warranting a full VU. I don’t really foresee that happening though, at least not any time soon. For now he’s ok.
[Carmilia] Are there other Champions who need minor adjustements via texture work?
IronStylus: There’s a whole list of champions which sort of constitute a lower tier in terms of priority and work needed for VU. This equates to “TU’s”, or Texture Updates. Those are champions whose models, rigs, animations, and other framework are in pretty decent shape, and all they need is some geometry tweaking on the model and texture polish for quality and readability’s sake. Yes, Miss Fortune would be one of those. Some others might be Lux, Vayne, and a few other recent-ish champions built on solid foundations. Such TU’s would be easier to do, low-risk and be able to be peppered into our larger scale effort to overhaul champions that have a heavier work load attached to them.
[Splinterheart] How long does it take to develop a Texture Rework?
IronStylus: Depends. The Rammus one, since it wasn’t a full blown operation, more of a labor of love for some of our artists for a while, took longer than it would have to just focus the entire Relaunch team onto such a TU. That said, we only have a certain number of texture artists. They’re going to have stuff to do across the board on a number of different assets at any given time. Work like this seems to be be best served when it’s not the absolute priority, and as I said, mixed into the various levels of work we do on any particular champion.
We have a TU list also. As per usual, if you look though characters that have fairly solid rigs and animations, you can guess which ones will most likely be in line for a TU rather than a full blown VU or relaunch.
[GenuineGuilt] Off-topic: Any news on Kassadin?
IronStylus: Kassadin is high on the priority list for a full VU.
Following Morello‘s recent statement that we should expect a possible tweaking of Zyra, CertainlyT posted a theoretical rework for her.
Â CertainlyT:Â Hey everybody — Here is some additional context on the proposed changes. I’ll just bullet point it:
â€¢ Q and E both spawn seeds placed at the moment of detonation more reliably. This is especially in the presence of latency — something our pros play without but you play with. Ever notice that you combo and are left with a seed on the ground after? That is largely resolved.
â€¢ E spawns Vine Lashers in a wider band around it, allowing you to create more effective zoning walls with good mouse movement or pre-placement of seeds.
â€¢ R hastens plants grown after it has been placed, allowing you to ult at a position in an emergency and then turn the fight around and unload on your opponent(s) if they fail to escape.
â€¢ Deadly Bloom at 800 range and Rampant Growth at 850 allows you to place seeds in the outer portion of the ring created by max range Deadly Blooms. Combined with the reliability changes above, you can now more effectively cast Q or E, wait a moment to see which way the enemy moves, and create a plant at the edge of the spell closest to them. These optimizations are really satisfying and embody the gameplay I intended on release. Overall, her playmaking potential has gone up to compensate for her raw numerical power going down.
â€¢ Itâ€™s not on PBE yet, but I plan on improving the self-only indicators of who your plant is targeting (the triangle with downward arrow above enemiesâ€™ heads) facilitating finer plant micro-management using your basic attack.
â€¢ 10% CDR is worth 322 gold. If you maxed W last, the CDR nerf is roughly the gold equivalent of losing 3 AP at level 2, 6 AP at level 14, and 0.75 of an Amp Tome at level 18. Common mid builds overcapped CDR by a hefty margin making the effective cost even less. The change was long overdue given season 3’s improved access to cooldown reduction.
â€¢ Reduced plant base damage at early levels is focused on Zyra’s power as a duo laner. She levels much more slowly and leans more heavily on base damage from the support position.
â€¢ The duration of Stranglethorns’ stun on live was never intended to be this length. She still retains a gigantic amount of CC, even for a control mage. Even after these changes, she still brings 3 seconds of AOE immobilization/stun to set up further crowd control, such as Vine Lashers.
â€¢ The small reduction in Q base damage is mostly targeted at competitive support Zyra â€“ they take Q first and harass their opponents out of lane, since it is nearly unavoidable if you cast it when the enemy AD begins a last hit. Itâ€™s also the change in which I have the least confidence, so keep tabs on this one.
â€¢ I am not interested in “compensation,” only in giving all Zyra players more opportunities to distinguish themselves, because I think Zyra is also too strong as a mid laner. That she is still highly successful in that slot in an assassin-filled meta-game (her natural counter) speaks for itself. The fact that LCS teams generally choose to run her bot lane doesn’t make her mid lane case immune from balance considerations. If you enjoy Zyra enough to take advantage of the gains this patch provides, you’ll still find great success in mid..
Missed any recent updates? Catch up on the latest topics!
The PBE has been updated with visual and balance changes to Garen, an Improved Options Menu for Keybindings and Graphics, a brand new skin for Viktor and new, less sparkly minion effects! CertainlyT iterates on above changes to Garen, IronStylusand GrumpyMonkeydiscuss his Visual Upgrade in detail, we get a sneak peek into what is probably the coolest-looking Champion in development, Ao Shin and to top off this news batch, we have Scarizardsharing his vision of Rengar as well as a couple neat ideas for Bonetooth Necklace!
Active now states: Shyvana transforms into a dragon and takes flight to a target location, breathing a long trail of fire in front of her as she flies, dealing magic damage and leaving a trail that deals the same amount of damage over 4 seconds. Enemies along her path are knocked toward her target location. While in Dragon Form, Shyvana’s attacks and abilities have extra range.
Â Rayven:Â Need to quickly set all your hotkeys to Smart Cast? Things just got easier with improvements weâ€™ve made to the options menu. Weâ€™ve sped up common tasks and made things more intuitive and easier to find, meaning youâ€™re back in the game with your options fixed up faster than Hecarim with homeguard boots. This is the first step towards improving options in LoL â€“ weâ€™ll continue iterating and improving the experience going forward.
Updated Key Bindings
Here are the highlights from the new menu:
â€¢ Reorganized and clearer navigation that lets you easily switch through different pages
â€¢ Changes are preserved across pages until you hit OK
â€¢ Restore now defaults to a per-screen basis so you donâ€™t clobber all of your settings at once
â€¢ Scrolling. Yes, scrolling with your actual mouse wheel
â€¢ Dedicated buttons so you can quickly enable and disable Smart Cast
â€¢ New ways to quickly change your main hotkeys or find that seldom used one lower down in the list
â€¢ A new slider that adjust all video/graphic settings to an overall quality level
â€¢ Switching resolutions should be noticeably faster for many players
â€¢ Key interface options now update in real-time as you adjust the slider (this includes the HUD, minimap and chat scaling, as well as a test sound to indicate volume levels)
â€¢ Just kidding, we removed this section and re-organized its contents into other, more appropriate sections
As players ourselves, we understood there was an opportunity to make the options menu experience better so players can spend less time navigating and more time playing League. As with anything on the PBE, we need your feedback to improve this feature. Hotkeys and options differ widely from player to player and weâ€™re interested in how these changes impact you.
Update on ETA
Â Reinbloom:Â To note, the new options menu is not slated for 3.12 as we would first like to ensure it’s as fit for your scrumptious consumption as possible.Â
I’ve attached what it looks like for those who can’t currently login to the PBE with my [Foxfire] Ahri setup.
Can we adjust the settings without being in-game?
Â Â Rayven:Â Not with this release, but we know that players want to set their options outside of the game. With this set of improvements, we wanted to focus on speeding up the in-game options experience.
Please test the menu out for yourself and let us know if we’ve improved it for you!
Will this allow for both normal cast and smart cast to be used at the same time?
Â Â Reinbloom:Â Yes, there is still a keybind grid below the primary hotkeys that you can make individual (and separate) setups with.
Can you clarify on what the graphics slider does?
Â Â Reinbloom:Â The graphics slider is a tool only to quickly get to specific groups of settings quickly. It also helps to inform what parts of our system is actually costly (like shadows and effects).
You can change the individual settings instead of using the graphics slider. The graphics slider just goes in to “Custom” mode.
First, these changes to Garen are very nascent. To be honest, they went to the PBE because I accidentally placed them in the wrong folder. They are currently closer to the â€œStuff a designer prototypes on his machineâ€ level of completion than â€œStuff we ship to Live.â€ Feedback is always welcome, but hyperbolic statements like â€œtheyâ€™re ruining himâ€ are not necessary and needlessly breed panic over changes that, when the dust settles, are almost certain to leave him stronger overall.
Second, since this was an accidental promotion, it also did not include all of the changes to Garen â€“ in the version we are about to begin playtesting, his passive is dramatically improved during the later phases of the game (healing values up/cooldown down) and his base stats and stats per level are slightly different.
Third, you have misapprehended the direct effect of some of these changes. For example, Garenâ€™s Judgment (Spin to Win) is not on a longer cooldown. Rather, the cooldown begins when you press the button rather than when you end your spin. This means that Garen scales better with cooldown reduction. For example, at 34% CDR (say, Black Cleaver + Spirit Visage + masteries) Garen would have 25% less downtime on Judgment compared to Live. At 0% CDR, the spell is unchanged from Live in max uptme.
What are these changes really about? Letâ€™s consider the Garen on Live: As youâ€™ve identified, heâ€™s a lane bully who lacks a purpose in the lategame. You seem to believe this is all Garen can ever be. I disagree.Â Every champion should have a purpose, a clear and potent contribution they can offer their team, in the late game when the gameâ€™s focus is on team fights and objectives. The goal of these changes is to trade a small amount of lane strength for a fundamental re-think of Garenâ€™s late game.
My vision for Garen is that he is a relatively low mobility fighter (unchanged) with low combat ranges (unchanged) who a) is more or less immune to poke damage, b) inflicts immense damage to anyone within his reach, and c) if forced out of a fight but not killed, will rapidly regenerate health to return to the fray for cleanup duty. Think of him as an inverted Mundo/Singed â€“ lower in-combat sustain but dramatically higher out of combat sustain. Pre-fight, Garen should walk in front of Nidalee spears and /laugh. Within fights, Garen should cleave a path through the mid-line, force the enemy ADC so far out of the fight that they cannot participate, turn and shut down the enemy mage or tank, execute the other while at 5% life himself, then solo dragon while his team takes an inhibitor.
As a final note, this isnâ€™t just about Garen. Weâ€™re looking closely at our fighters as a class for season 4, individually and as a class with the goal of making the top lane experience more enjoyable â€“ (while being in it and after emerging from it).
Why can’t Judgement be canceled anymore?
Â Â CertainlyT:Â I don’t want to dwell on specifics because, again, these are first draft changes that have not even been playtested once outside of the lane. The reasoning for the change though was to make casting E a major commitment. Again, not every change will make Garen stronger. Every change shouldÂ open spaceÂ for us to make Garen stronger in the right hands.
What are your plans for the Fighter class come Season 4?
Â Â CertainlyT:Â We’ll hopefully start talking publicly about that in 2-6 weeks! Then the plan is to iterate on thoughtful feedback/playtesting from the community and have a more enjoyable fighter class, and top lane/jungle experience (the three are inextriacbly linked) ready for season 4.
Rioters discuss the recently previewed VU for Garen and why he has taken priority over other Champions in dire need of better looks.
Why did Garen’s VU take precedence over Sion’s, Morgana’s, etc?
Â IronStylus:Â Going to x-post this because I know it’s going to come up a lot, about our priorities and basically, Garen, why?
We have to space out our champions from High-Risk to Low-Risk. If you’ve seen what we did at PAX, we’ve revealed Sivir, but we were honest in saying she wasn’t next. All the champions you’ve mentioned are high-risk, with maybe the exception of Nasus.
Garen is Low-Risk and high reward. Not our worst executed champion, but of tremendous player value in how common/approachable/archetypal he is.
He was relatively “low cost” for how much value he’ll bring to players.
Sion, Eve, etc, are all on the List. Sivir is coming up soon, but she also, was high-risk, requiring a lot of ideation.
I can non-hyperboilicly say that he’s really epic in his execution and it’s a well deserved VU.
Follow-up: High-Risk vs Low-Risk VUs
Â IronStylus:Â A large thread did pop up asking if Garen could get a VU.
We’ve held a high-risk vs. low-risk ever since we did a number of high-risk champions in general proximity. Karma, Trundle, Sejuani, etc.
The fact that “no one” complained about him doesn’t mean he didn’t need to be updated to fit quality and stylistic standards now in place.
We always run the risk when we change something players are used to, but we do our best to make sure we’re fulfilling and enhancing the fantasy of that character. Making them all around more fun and appealing to play by those who love them, and those who are new to the character.
Who is behind Garen’s rework?
Â IronStylus:Â Grumpy Monkey did the base and I did all the skinsÂ
We wanted to push the skins just a bit more. They all equated basically to recolors/geometry swaps. Not a ton of thematic shift. So, for example, we pushed Sanguin more towards almost a vampire warrior. Pushed Desert Trooper towards a Demacian Laurence of Arabia thing, made Rugged a bit more… Rugged, and so on.
We did the same with Master Yi wherever he had simple recolors. Tried to add a bit more thematic flavor.
Update: Garen’s face
Â GrumpyMonkey:Â Hey Guys! I am looking at these screenshots and I think some tweaks to the faces on the Skins are in order! So expect that to hit on the PBE, also to everyone asking “Sivir Where?” The Relaunch team did a panel at Pax Prime where we revealed some stuff you might be interested in.Â http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s38TE4ZmogÂ Thanks for the kind comments and for the objective criticism! We are still working on tiny things while he is on PBE. Thanks for the feedback.Â
Why wasn’t Morgana updated first?
Â IronStylus:Â Morgana has some issues with rigging and other things. She’s a higher risk thematically right now also because she’s literally a fallen angel. We have to figure out how that broadly fits into the IP if at all.
Off-topic: Will there be any changes to Sion’s kit?
Â IronStylus:Â Sorry, Morello has already spoken to the most-likely demise of AP Sion.
Why did you downgrade Rugged Garen’s signature looks?
Â IronStylus:Â We;re looking into doing a texture update for Rugged Garen based on feedback.
Follow-up: Why is Rugged Garen wearing two shoulder-pads in the VU instead of one?
Â IronStylus:Â Right next to me, Grumpy Monkey is making adjustments to his shoulder pad. There needs to be a “shoulder pad” of some sort due to weighting issues and some model deformation during certain movements. But the current pad is being downsized and recolored to match the jacket. Like a leather pad.
Suggestion: Give Garen a bear and add damage to his clothing so it doesn’t appear so immaculate
Â GrumpyMonkey:Â Great Suggestions. I agree.
Suggestion: Make Dreadknight Garen’s armor darker
Â IronStylus:Â When I left work the texture artists were working on some adjustments.
Conclusion: Justifying Garen’s VU and its quality
Â IronStylus:Â I will maintain that this VU has been executed masterfully, and when you get your hands on him, you’ll feel how much more substantial he is, and how better he feels in terms of being integrated into the game’s evolving style.
Big choices were made. Stylistic changes happened, but we feel this is in-line. Why? Not because we’re building it and plugging it in, it’s because teams of people have developed these characters and experienced them full hand as we’re creating them. They’ve been a part of this evolution. Everyone at Riot has a hand in creation. We’re players, we have the minds of players, we act upon what we, as players, would want to see.
When we create, teams at large have access to the playtests, the assets, art, etc. Visibility is key at Riot. We would not feel confident about these choices if those around us felt otherwise.
As the League of Legends community expands and grows around the world, so too do our influences and inspirations for the game. We thought it would be fun to give you guys a very early peek at one of the champions we’re working on while he’s still in the early stages. Meet Ao Shin, a powerful storm dragon and guardian of the natural world. Legend holds that when Ionia faces its greatest crisis, Ao Shin will descend from the sky.
Let’s start with the inspiration for his name:Â AoÂ is the family name of the mythological dragon kings, who rule water and weather. This tells us right away that this is a powerful, elegant being, above the concerns and rules of men.Â Shincan mean many things, one of which is prosperity. It also means a rising storm. Ao Shin embodies this elemental duality, capable of raining good fortune on his allies and, in the very next breath, bringing stormy, thunderous ruin upon his foes.
Ao Shin Sketches
Will this Champion take away from Shyvana’s unique lore?
Â Meddler:Â Fair concern, quite agree we should avoid disempowering existing champions with new ones. One of the things that appealed to us about Ao Shin in the first place though was that we saw an opportunity to do something pretty different dragon wise that wouldn’t step on Shyvana’s talons. Another western fire breathing dragon on the other hand would have created those sort of problems.
How will you differentiate Ao Shin’s abilities from Janna’s?
Â Meddler:Â Differentiation from Janna’s definitely important, thankfully there’s a huge number of different things you can do with this sort of theme so that’s something we’ve borne in mind, rather than a significant problem. And yes, size is also something that’s got a decent amount of discussion, as is how to capture the sort of power associated with dragons in a way that’s both satisfying and balanced. We’re not ready to talk details yet, great topics for discussion once we are though.
How long have you been working on Ao Shin?
Â Meddler:Â Ao Shin’s one of those champion concepts that we’ve been considering for quite a while (initial art concepts for example started last year). Until recently though there were still some big outstanding questions, story and gameplay in particular, that we hadn’t answered, so we weren’t ready to go ahead with him as a champion. We’re not ready to talk about a lot of his details yet, we definitely will once we can of course though.
Will we see some numbers on his updated skills soon?
Â Scarizard:Â Yeah, i’ll do that soon. I just wrote up a big changelist with items and everything internally and am editing it based on changes (Today i buffed Q’s cooldown back to 6 at all ranks and gave his bola a 1.0 bonus ad ratioÂ Â )
Still unlikely to show numbers until he’s in a PBE state – while i can always post anecdotes, it’s more that i don’t want to get people hyped about OH MAN LOOK AT THE COOLDOWNS AND DAMAGES! and then have to take them away at a moment’s notice due to some imbalance – in the past, this has led some people to be like ‘wtf why didn’t you ship -that- version?’
This is also why we don’t talk about numbers in our PBE context threads, since a lot of that stuff can and will change up to the night before a patch locks.
I know it’s difficult, but i appreciate you guys sticking with it. I sat down with Classick today and talked over the changelist and he thinks it’s an overall buff (with obvious nerfs to what we’ve talked about/deemed abusive) and that the general playerbase should see better results with Rengar across the board.
tl;dr – i’m at home now, but when i get in to the office tomorrow i can update the main post with a skeleton of the one i wrote up earlier today.
Stay bloodthirsty, my friends.
Will you make Rengar a better assassin?
Â Â Scarizard:Â I actually main assassins and fighters, so Rengar has always been a really attractive champion to me – i just appreciate that assassins are a class that requires finesse and nuance, as well as a good sense of game knowledge, situational awareness, and the ability to be opportunistic. Things like this draw me to the Class as a whole, and things like Rengar’s 500% AD triple-q-in-less-than-a-second doesn’t make me feel clever, or like i’m outplaying anyone – it just makes me feel like i’m subverting gameplay in a way that makes our game more dry as a whole.
Naturally i’m giga-biased, but this version of Rengar makes me feel like i have options and real choices, and that when i pull off stealth ganks in a lane or shrouding mid-fight and surprising people i’ve gotten a high degree of satisfaction and feel really accomplished. Even the Q-Train (Q2 giving 3 Ferocity) makes me feel like i have a planned ‘combo’ similar to Ryze (Which spell do i begin with and then end with to get the most Ferocity Spells?) that i think is fun and lets me press a bunch of buttons.Â
tl;dr Assassin Rengar being ‘unviable’ was never a goal, just the way that he was executing his play felt unfair and unfulfilling.
Update on Bonetooth Necklace
Â Â Scarizard:Â So, i’m redoing the numbers on Bonetooth atm. Thinking of adding a secondary passive to make it more attractive to Rengar players in lane, while also having synergy with Jungle.
How does this sound?
Heals X amount on kill. On champion or significant minion/monster, the Heal is multiplied (by maybe 3 or 5, whichever makes sense and is significant.)
So i don’t know what the number would be, but the idea is that it gives him a minor level of sustain that synergizes with last-hitting (minion kills could give you a small amount of sustain, with Siege Minions giving you the Significant bonus, ala Thresh/Nasus/Veigar collection games) while also being a useful mitigation in the jungle – esp on camps like Wraiths where you’d likely outheal the little guys.
Suggestion: Bonetooth grants 5x health for killing Baron, Dragon or Vilemaw
Â Scarizard:Â Unlikely that the heal will ever be -that- big, my target strength to have this be similar to a Doran’s passive (Like 5 on kill, 50 on Significant) may be a possibility. While it’s something that -could- make him more snowbally, it seems less snowbally to me than say Vampiric Scepter on dudes with AA steroids or Doran’s Blades. However, getting a toplaner interested in something at an 800g cost when you could just get Doran’s + Boots or Vamp scepter makes it a hard sell @_@
Possible we could do +100 HP on champions, but my gut says that’s unlikely. I wouldn’t want to give out +100 on significant monsters/minions, and i also wouldn’t want to create more than two points of healing (like Small, Medium and Large heal).
Haven’t put it in yet, but i’m thinking somewhere around 5-8 per kill and somewhere between 50-65 on big kill.
What does Empowered Bola ( 5 Ferocity + E ) do in this iteration?
Â Â Scarizard: Deals damage that scales with Champion Level (as do all 5-points now) and the root duration is extended.
Won’t a Bonetooth Necklace be lackluster for sustain when compared to a Doran’s Blade?
Â Â Scarizard:Â It’s not as good, but you also would sometime get ~50+ for killing golems, or siege minions. Or you could just build both 😛
Like i said, throwing a number out. I don’t suspect i’ll put 5 in for testing, but something around the numbers Doran’s items have is what i’m looking for.
The purpose of BTN
Â Â Scarizard:Â Not going to put anything crazy like Stealth on it. This is an 800g item that is giving you Attack Damage, Butcher Passive and upgrades into champion-specific bonuses. For what it’s doing, it’s pretty cheap…which is why i’ll reiterate again that whatever the passive comes out to be will be a minor, yet useful passive that:
Appeals to laning Rengar in the early phases of the game
Has a secondary synergy with jungle Rengar.
So yeah, expect whatever 2nd passive makes it onto his BTN to be tiny, but useful. (The reason i keep bringing up Doran’s Items is their passives far outlive their statistical usefulness, and don’t feel poor as item choices regardless of their lack of buildpath.)
PBE‘s getting updated with buffs to Aegis and Locket and a nerf to Spirit of the Ancient Golem, as well as the updated Champion Roles, Rengar‘s getting a damage amplification buff, Morello discusses an upcoming Poppy rework and what it will/won’t include, Volty explains the recent Karma changes, Xelnathproposes a fix to skillshots fired outside field of view, Morello and CertainlyT discuss Twisted Fate‘s New Passive and why it was the “lesser evil”, Morello talks about junglers and where they’ll stand when Season 4 comes and finally, something less serious- Grumpy Monkey shares his early work on Nami!
Following the recent feedback thread, Rengar is getting a neat damage amplified against single targets- Wav3Break has the details!
How Rengar’s combat will play out
Â Wav3Break:Â Hey everyone, I just wanted to update you guys with my findings in implementing and initial testing the iteration with the Q train/Empowered Savagery generating/refunding 3 ferocity points on hit.
There is still some mixed internal feedback with how the overall play pattern feels but I think it is generally trending towards a positive direction. As you guys can probably discern, since Empowered Savagery is giving you so much ferocity as a means for you to start up another combo chain of Empowered Savagery(s) or accessing your other empowered abilities, the natural damage of Rengar’s Empowered Savagery has gone down by quite a bit. In return, the sheer amount of Empowered Savagery casts you can throw out within a limited amount of time has sky rocketed. #KnifeCatBaby.
In order to supplement this play style, I’ve added a mechanic such that multiple Empowered Savagery casts on the same target will mark the target as “Rengar’s Chosen Prey” and amp the damage of consecutive Empowered Savagery casts on them. Currently this debuff caps at 2 stacks and it will give Rengar a more fighter based play pattern because in drawn out fights the Rengar player will have to manage this debuff as well as make on the fly decision making of whether or not he should break out of his combo to access his Empowered Battle Roar or Empowered Bola Strike.
Despite this change supplementing a more Fighter-ish Rengar, he is still able to dish out a lot of damage on enemy squishies in a very short time period, preserving his assassin feel. What I am hoping this change does (and I’ll be able to confidently say if it does with more testing) is that Rengar can still be opportunistic and try to assassinate enemy squishies, but instead of all his damage being dished out in a 1-2 second window, it will happen in a 3-4 second window where the initial burst is around 70-80% of what his kill combo looks like and his second wave of burst comes a tad bit after.
Additionally, due to this triple ferocity gain on Empowered Savagery, I had to tune some of his other numbers around with Battle Roar and Bola Strike. These numbers are still very subject to change but I want to let you guys know that they will definitely change to reflect this system. Regarding my questions on Bola Strike last post: it feels like it will still remain a targeted ability for now.
I’ll be doing more work on polishing the rest of his changes over the weekend and will hopefully be able to give you guys a confident answer with Scarizard as to whether or not triple Ferocity gaining on Empowered Savagery tested well sometime next week!
P.S. An update on Bone Tooth Necklace – I’ve been reading a lot of the suggestions and they have all been very inspiring. I just want to reiterate the direction we are going with this item: it is an item that Rengar should not feel pressured to buy in every game, but rather an item that gives Rengar players who want to consciously play the “mega-hunter-jungle-knife-cat” play style a means of being even more “mega-hunter-jungle-knife-cat.” That being said, some ideas surrounding Bone Tooth Necklace giving team utility on empowered abilities or team utility in general sound interesting since your team helps you stack it anyways. Now instead of being a solo hunter your team can also be part of the hunting packÂ ?
Anyways, awesome ideas guys, keep them coming! Remember things are still subject to change.
TL:DR for Rengar changes:
Empowered Savagery refunds 3 Ferocity on-hit
Rengar now deals increased damage against a target damaged by his Empowered Q.
Damage on Savagery/Battle Roar/Bola Shot toned down to compensate for the increased number of Savagery casts during each combo
Volty explains the reasoning behind the recent changes to Karma we saw on the PBE.
Â Volty:Â A number of Karma changes recently briefly appeared on PBE. They appeared because I’ve been working on some updates to Karma. They appeared briefly because they were originally intended for the 3.10 patch, but that is no longer the case, so I pulled them.
Why were these changes so broad when they first appeared on PBE?
At first it seemed that Karma needed more changes in order to be a successful champion with a valid place in the game. In the last few weeks, we’ve seen and heard a lot of evidence that Karma is already finding a successful niche as a mage playing out of the top lane. Players seem happy with this and so am I, so I don’t need to make as many changes as I originally anticipated. (Karma is a flexible champion though, and I’m not forgetting Karma employed in mid or bot lane either.
What am I trying to do with these changes now?
I’d still like to take the opportunity to touch up a couple of things with Karma. First and foremost, that is reinforcing the Gathering Fire mechanic visually and mechanically. Some similar (and purely visual changes) are slated for Focused Resolve / Renewal. I’d also like to add a little bit of power to a few key mechanics.
With those things out of the way, here is the changelist as I’m currently looking at things. Of course, this is highly subject to discussion and iteration. Your feedback is welcome.
—Draft of Upcoming Changes——————–
Make Mantra/Gathering Fire interaction more clear and satisfying
– Gathering Fire effect made more readable and clear.
– Visual/audio reinforcement that Mantra has come off cooldown and is off cooldown.
Make Focused Resolve more distinct from Renewal, and clarify the effect of Renewal.
– The heal VFX are presently appropriate for a heal-over-time, but Karma gets one big heal upfront and another big heal at the end. Update VFX to fit the current mechanics.
– The beam isnâ€™t distinguishably different between Focused Resolve and Renewal, it should be easier to tell these apart.
– Provides full 2 second CD reduction for basic attacks on champions, like spells do, up from 1 second.
– Slow to 25/27.5/30/32.5/35% from 25%
Now these changes below are no longer slated for Karma, given feedback and recent observations and data about how she’s being used. But for clarity’s sake, here’s what was also on PBE earlier this week, in addition to the changes above.
Â Â Karma
Inner flame ( Q )
Slow amountÂ changedÂ from 25% at all ranksÂ to 20/25/30/35/40%
Soulflare ( R+Q )
Slow amountÂ increasedÂ from 50% to 60%
No longerÂ deals bonus damage on initial hit
Damage on detonation increased from 50/150/250/350 ( +0.6 AP ) toÂ 80/230/380/530 ( +1.1 AP )
Focused Resolve ( W )
CooldownÂ reducedÂ from 16/15/14/13/12 to 12 seconds at all ranks
Renewal ( R+W )
Leash heal changed from 20% ( +0.01 AP ) of missing HP toÂ 30/70/110/150 + ( 0.3 AP ) (heals for the same amount if the leash is not broken)
No longerÂ deals bonus magical damage
Defiance ( R+E )
RatioÂ decreasedÂ from 0.6 to 0.25 AP
Ally shield now has a base amount 40/85/130/175 (+ .25 AP ) instead of half Â the amount of Inspire â€“ 40/60/80/100/120 (+ .25 AP).
Where does Karma fit in a team comp?
Â Volty:Â I consider Karma to best as a top lane mage, and is secondary as mid lane mage and bot lane support.
These changes (The Q slow and the passive 2 seconds on autoattack) don’t particularly favor one role or position over another though. We have some room to add power but I don’t believe Karma needs a total rework at this time to be a successful champion in top lane or to be viable in other positions.
What will her Role tag be?
Â Volty:Â Can I give her both tags? Mage and support, that is.
Why is Karma underplayed?
Â Volty:Â Some things take time. I’m not sure that is an indication of failure either. Karma has a good bit of nuance and feel to her.
I personally believe that the Gathering Fire mechanic is undersold on live Karma, and I’m excited about making this more transparent. Things like that could help a lot with the learnability of the champion.
Xelnath is looking to improve the unintended aspect of invisible skillshots from out of sight.
Â Xelnath:Â Do you like getting hit by invisible Nidalee’s spears?
I don’t like getting hit by invisible Nidalee’s spears.
In the next PBE push (Sometime after 7/17/2013), you may notice a slight change to skillshot missiles fired from Fog of War.
Specifically, if a missile is moving towards you, Fog of War won’t hide it when it’s close to you. The intent is that you should always have some warning when you’re going to be nailed by a missile. It won’t be as much warning as you’d get if you could see the enemy, though.
We’re not quite done with this feature, so feedback is welcome. Here’s roughly how it should work:
If you’re standing behind the baron pit and nidalee throws a spear from where Baron spawns, towards you, you should see it before it hits you. If she throws it towards river, you see no warning about the spear at all. Similarly, if she throws it towards mid or top lane, places you can’t see, you won’t see the spear either.
The hope here is that we reduce the number of scenarios where players take damage without understanding why it occurred.
How quickly will we get a warning?
Â Â Xelnath:Â Probably about a half second to a second of warning time.
Now states: Upon killing a unit, Twisted Fate rolls his â€œâ€˜luckyâ€ dice and receives anywhere between 1 and 6 bonus gold
Why is this change being implemented?
Â Â Morello:Â TF’s old passive is basically tons of free power to the whole team, and it adds no new gameplay. The new passive doesn’t add a ton more gameplay, but at least reins it in to something manageable (and more satisfying for TF players).
I know it’s not as much of an issue in solo queue, but TF needs some kind of nerf. This is, literally, the nicest and friendliest nerf that could be done.
Â CertainlyT:Â I hate to break it to you, but Twisted Fate is broken at the moment. He’s been the most hotly contested pick in competitive play globally over the past year, including being picked or banned in every single OGN (Korean) game last season. This remains the case even after the tweaks we did last month. His mere presence in the game distorts all decisions the enemy team makes from picks and bans to lane assignments to mid game tower dives to late game team fight posturing. That’s the hallmark of an amazing ability, but the rest of the kit needs to take this level of game altering (and hence team assisting) utility into account.
Personally I like the new passive because it means that if you can shut Twisted Fate down, you actually accrue a meaningful advantage over his team. The current passive rigs the entire game, all lanes and jungle, against his opponents due to the silent increase in teamwide gold accruing steadily and inexorably over the course of the game.
Lastly, you seem to be assuming when you say “1-6” that TF likes to play fair when he rolls his dice. I can assure you this is far from the truth.
Then why doesÂ Janna have a global passive?
Â Â Morello:Â I’m not sure why we haven’t changed this one – though I expect people to lose their minds when we do.
Prepare your bodies, that passive will eventually be out of the game.
Â Â Morello:Â I think the answer is we just haven’t gotten to it yet.
Why doesn’t Loaded Dice grant 2-6 gold instead of 1-6?
Â Â Morello:Â You assume the chance is equally weighted.
Â Xypherous:Â Do youÂ reaaallyÂ think the Card Master would leave things up to chance? :3
So the problem with global passives is “invisible power”?
Â Â Morello:Â Exactly. How much gameplay it adds (for either team), how satisfied the user/recipient can be vs the power is the axis to look at this from, and on that, it’s very poor. It’s really strong, but doesn’t make new things occur or add new strategic depth.
Will this change remedy the issues with TF?
Â Â Morello:Â TF is broken – this passive won’t actually fix that, but it’ll at least get his power to be slightly lower without making him any less fun.
Why are you fixing Twisted Fate instead of other, more problematic champions?
Â Â Morello:Â That’s because it takes no time to do the TF passive and get it right. Comparitively, we’ve been nerfing Jayce (and will continue to) – but the situation is more complex and difficult. Therefore, requires more time and iteration. Same with Thresh.
One thing to mention is our last couple of patches have been tough on us internally, so we’ve had to delay a couple of the more complex changes. We’re trying to avoid “Olafing” these characters, and want to do more focused nerfs. We could nuke them from orbit, but we’ve been trying to avoid that so we don’t just rotate the list of who the OP characters are.
Are you trying to reduce his popularity?
Â Statikk:Â Our goal is not to reduce his pick rate, TF provides a very fun and unique game experience.
We’re simply trying to make him more fair to play against.
Morello shares his opinion on where junglers falter, where they exceed and what changes we can expect to the jungle come Season 4.
Regarding the Spirit of the Ancient Golem nerf
Â Â Morello:Â 50 HP nerf on really efficient item = junglers are not worth using?
There’s a gold flow problem in the jungle – we agree – but the problem is not jungler power, it’s jungler build satisfaction and expectations of the team, much like support.
What are the current issues with jungling?
Â Â Morello:Â Yes – but some of it is season 4. Remember we did just buff total jungle XP when we changed the camp timing to prevent early golems.
These problems are similar to the support problems. What this means is:
* Junglers are powerful and meaningful in the game.
* Junglers don’t feel satisfied with the amount of gold they get in the game
* Junglers are expected to buy team items each game, which is not always desirable
* Junglers areÂ not immune to balance just because they have other problems
Let me be clear: I understand the issue you guys have with junglers, and it’s something that does take more than buffs or nerfs to fix. But if something is too strong, having other feel considerations will not (and should not) change our balance methods with this position.
Â Â Morello:Â Gank rewards are already in a good spot (as we’re seeing ganks as one of the better gold gain methods, even if unreliable), but I think the problem is other than ganks, gold is pretty poor. I’d rather that junglers have a reasonable fall-back source of gold, or that carry junglers with poorer ganks have a place in the jungle as well. Ganks have a lot of other power revolving around snowballing their lanes too, so a jungler’s gank impact has a number of powerful values for the team. Ward saturation also contributes to ganks being more frustrating for junglers.
So I’d like to increase jungle farm rewards for both more consistency (as lane has) and more jungler options.
Does that mean we won’t get jungle buffs until Season 4?
Â Â Morello:Â We won’t probably fix the core issue until then, though small changes (like the XP one) can happen mid-season.
Again, junglers are very good and contribute a lot of power. Junglers have satisfaction issues.
What changes to the jungle can we expect in Season 4?
Â Â Morello:Â We’re changing something fundamentally in the jungle then to put more gold in the jungler’s hands overall, and keep it out of laner’s hands as much as possible. It requires map geo changes though, which are a nightmare and very disruptive to the competitive season.
I don’t think being overstatted props junglers up because they’re not close to being weak (there’s no reasonable conclusion right now that junglers suck), but instead are lacking in gold satisfaction. The confusion is you guys are comparing feel to raw power balance.