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Thoughts on the juggernaut reworks Where were up to after 4 weeks

Meddler Final PortraitHey folks,

Wanted to provide an update on our thinking about the recently reworked juggernauts. Initial post from a week post launch here:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/GzunkiGw-initial-juggernaut-thoughts

Overall the juggernauts have definitely been too strong (our bad). Making comparatively immobile melee effective is something we’ve had trouble with in the past, which in retrospect’s lead to us putting too much power into this group. We have been seeing some distinctive play generated by each of the reworks though, which hits on one of our primary goals for this work of making different characters have distinctly different effects on the game. Fairly optimistic we’ll see that continue once we’ve got balance into the correct spot, though won’t count those chickens before they hatch of course. What we’re thinking for patch 5.18 below, with a few longer term thoughts mixed in.


Garen Final Portrait

Garen did turn out to be too strong as initially suspected. The mobility nerfs in 5.17 have helped with that, we still feel he’s a bit strong at present though. Next major change we’ll be doing in 5.18 is making it so that people no longer generate Villainy stacks by killing Garen himself. Biggest impact there is that you won’t get punished for killing Garen in lane, which in some match ups makes it really hard to get a real advantage in lane against him (or even turns what should be a winning action into a losing action).


Darius Final Portrait

Went from significantly weak to too strong with the hotfix and buff in 5.17. We’re nerfing him in 5.18 as a result, giving Q a scaling mana cost and reducing the amount he heals per target hit by Q (with an increase to the max possible healing). Goal there is to nerf his healing overall, in lane in particular, while allowing some big moments still if he can catch 3 enemy champions with the blade. Longer term we’ve also been talking about whether straight % missing health is the correct model or not for Darius’ heal, given how much a tanky Darius can heal for. It’s possible we’ll shift towards a flat + missing% model instead at some point, still discussing/waiting to see how the 5.18 nerfs impact him.


Skarner Final Portrait

We were pretty happy with how the hotfix hit Skarner, since it dropped his power substantially without going too far and leaving him too weak. He’s still too strong, so we’ll be following up on him as well in 5.18, with a nerf to his E slow, reducing the power of his ganks in particular.


Mordekaiser Final Portrait

Now that the dust’s settled somewhat it’s pretty clear Morde’s significantly overpowered as a farming duo laner, and very weak as a solo laner. We’ll be nerfing Morde’s base Armor, W healing and W damage (no longer deals double damage when overlapping, base damage increased somewhat). For solo Morde W’s going to be self castable for the healing effect (though not the damage). Expectation is that we’ll need to do more to Morde in follow up patches as well, though as usual we’ll see what effect those changes have first.

Bonus items section: So far Deadman’s Plate, Titanic Hydra and Sterak’s Gage are looking pretty reasonable. They’re doing the right sort of things on the right sort of champions. No current changes planned for them as a result, though we’re still keeping a clear eye on them of course as builds continue to get tested and refined.

Finally it’s also worth noting that since 5.18 is the patch World’s will be played on we’ve been putting a lot of focus into how the juggernauts are performing in professional play (since balance tends to be somewhat different between normal games and organized 5s, high skill level 5s especially). The recent LPL games have been played on 5.16 with the hotfix, which has been a useful data point for us in assessing juggernaut power. We’ve seen Darius and Skarner picked there (Skarner much more than Darius), both looking strong, though not overwhelming so. No sign of Garen isn’t surprising (the nature of his kit’s a better match for solo queue). No Morde picks or bans is a harder one to interpret. It’s possible his weaknesses are such that an organized team can just shut him down, or that he’s new enough teams haven’t had enough time to drill into his changes yet, so aren’t interested in picking him for now even if he’s theoretically strong (I’m personally in this camp, though definitely not 100% certain about it).

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When can we expect Miss Fortunes balance changes to hit live After Worlds


CertainlyT New PortraitThe present plan is for MF’s changes to come out with the pre-season (so after Worlds), as they require particle updates to her base and skins.

Not to get everyone too excited, but we are also having to do a lot of performance testing to ensure that the number of bullets her ult fires at level 16 doesn’t destroy min spec computers.

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Can we get a visual indicator for Miss Fortunes Impure Shots W stacks

Repertoir New PortraitMF is getting some tweaks in the pretty near future, and I believe that part of this package is better visualization for Impure Shots.

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Do youve any plans for Poachers Knife Is there any use for the item

Meddler Final PortraitIt has, outside of the occasional really niche use. Odds are high we’ll remove it come preseason when we do an item pass (updating, adding, removing various items).

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Meddler Final PortraitWe wanted to try an item that really clearly telegraphed your intent to counter jungle a lot, with power loaded into the action of counter jungling specifically (as opposed to an item that’s good for counterjungling, but also has other uses, like boots). Conclusion at this point is that that’s too narrow a space for an item, given its tendency to lead to one jungler or the other failing really hard early. We want early actions to matter, but not to effectively decide games, and Poacher’s risks games snowballing too hard too fast for one team or the other.

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Can you say whats in store for next season as far as drastic changes go

Meddler Final PortraitWe’re focusing much less on the jungle specifically this time than past preseasons. There’ll be some tweaks to it, but nothing as large as the overhaul last year.

Details on what we are focusing on to follow closer to the time once they’re more certain (lot of early experimentation in progress at present).

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Are there other items thatll see drastic changes like this next season

Meddler Final PortraitNone as clear cut as Poacher’s. We’re experimenting with a lot of stuff at present, it’ll be a while though before most of that’s solid enough to talk about usefully though.

One thing I will mention, since I’ve seen it requested a lot, is that we’re looking at a reworked version of Executioner’s Calling (AD Grevious Wounds item). Way too early to make any promises it’ll necessarily be coming back, it is one of the things we’re looking into though.

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What are you thoughts on Grevious Wounds in general

Meddler Final PortraitCurrent thinking is that Grevious Wounds serves a useful function keeping healing/regen in check, but that we may not have been offering it in the right ways. For starters the % may not be right, – 50% is such a larger difference that characters with strong healing end up being really feast or famine depending on whether they’re facing GW or not. Shifting to a lower %, and reducing healing/regen amounts somewhat, might be more appropriate.

As far as GW on individual champions goes we’ve stripped it off a number of champions because of the amount if felt like some match ups were decided in champion select. We’re still talking though about whether there are some good spots for GW on champion kits (e.g. is the problem regular application of GW in lane, rather than GW on kits in general).

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Can we have some QoL buffs for Azir that would make him easier in Solo Queue

Meddler Final PortraitYeah, Azir’s learning curve’s extremely steep (hardest in the game last I checked). Having a long learning curve for a champion has a lot of value, it means there’s almost always something you can learn and improve at. In Azir’s case though his curve’s both very long and, during your initial games, really steep. That means there’s a really punishing period to get through before you can start playing him reasonably well, given we need to balance for players who know what they’re doing on him. Ways to make him a bit more accessible, without removing depth, would be really valuable as a result. We’ve been considering doing that at some point later this year already, thoughts extremely welcomed on things to look at.

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The health on Shacos boxes should scale with level spell ranks


Meddler Final PortraitWe’ll fix clones not getting the Villain marker in the next patch, it’s not intended that that gives Garen’s team a constant way to tell clones and champions apart.

The Devourer wolf does stealth when Shaco stealths. If there are certain circumstances that’s not happening in let us know and we’ll get them fixed.

Finally as far as Shaco boxes go I’d be really hesitant to mess with their health model without doing significant other work to Shaco, given that’s going to impact his jungle clearing in particular. Definitely a thought worth noting in case we do a Shaco rework at some point though (nothing currently planned, there is some stuff it would be good to improve however).

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Kalistas auto attack range should be nerfed from 550 to 525 or even 500

CertainlyT New PortraitKalista was 525 for a decent period during her development. Feedback was very negative to this at the time, though feedback tends to be negative toward mechanics that reduce the player’s margin for error during this phase, as most players are unfamiliar with the champion. Perhaps at some point we will revisit the issue. Certainly a few things about the champion would need to change to compensate for the range loss.

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Is Talon slated for a rework anytime soon

Meddler Final PortraitWe do think Talon could do with a bit of work at some point, aimed at making him more distinct from other assassins and improving counterplay available for some enemies. Overall though there are quite a lot of other characters that need the work more, so he’s not a rework priority.

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Whats the status of Yoricks rework

Meddler Final PortraitThe Yorick rework Xelnath was experimenting with did get ice boxed. We do plan to do a full rework (Sion/Poppy level) for Yorick still at some point, at the very least that won’t be happening this year though. Yorick’s got some major issues, Poppy, and likely Taric, are ahead of him in the full relaunch queue at a minimum though.

In terms of class we do think juggernaut would be a good fit. Given his minion summoning theme the direction we’re most likely to go is a juggernaut with strong pushing power (split push, counter push, tower sieger or some combination of the above).

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Is Leona crying in her PROJECT splash art

BIOLUMINESCENCE Final PortraitI don’t know for certain if she’s crying or not, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case. PROJECT isn’t (despite Leona’s presence) all sunshine and smiles. It’d be nice to hear more about that world.

I think they’re still on for releasing them on 9/8, right? Not too long now.

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Why doesnt LoL have more in-game quests to promote its backstory

BIOLUMINESCENCE Final PortraitYou rang?

I think there’s been a few things that sort of touch on this, referred to as hidden passives:

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Easter_eggs/Hidden_Passive

In that list you’ll find little treats for Vi/Caitlyn vs. Jinx, Leona vs. sunglasses, pirates vs. ninjas, etc. These are super subtle things that might add 1g or -1hp or something of that scale – nothing particularly game-breaking for the most part. I don’t know what the development cost is for making (and more importantly – maintaining) these things are, so I can’t speak to if they are easy to add, or more trouble than they’ve been worth. I see that they removed the item for Rengar (in the Kha’Zix/Rengar quest) and turned it into a passive stacking buff instead.

I agree with TurquoiseYoshi and ChromaticEagle that 200g is a hefty chunk of change that could change the course of a game, if it came at the right moment. The number of times I’ve been short even 50g to get my next item I can hardly count!

I think the kind of effort that’s going into these things is usually channeled into the taunt quotes (which have been pretty extensive, recently, I thought).

What I wouldn’t want to see is more reasons for players to fight for results that don’t align with the rest of their team. You sometimes see this in events – if you’ve got half your team wanting to kill more turrets, and another team wants to win fast, then you get players who are misaligned in their goals, and that can lead to intra-team conflict. Maybe you argue that 200g isn’t enough to create that sort of conflict – but I’ve seen how even in normal games, an upset player can begrudge a jungler some CS, or a player in a vs. bots game might be disappointed that they didn’t practice a baron kill before ending the game. I could only imagine the anger some players would display if they were playing Lucian and the jungler killed the enemy Thresh. Or how annoyed the rest of the team might get if Lucian, determined to get that gold, took a risk that they maybe shouldn’t have done. 🙁

I could see something like these things turn up as hidden passives in the future (if it’s not a maintenance nightmare – I don’t know) or as something that could turn up in a future event, or more likely be something we see a lot of in taunts between champs.

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I enjoy gamemodes thatre tied to lore like Black Market Brawlers

BIOLUMINESCENCE Final PortraitI like them too – especially as they’re opt in, and everyone has an understanding of the expectation for the mode.

There have been times (like when different people were on different stages of the recent Bilgewater event) when it could get a little confusing, but again – as long as it’s opt in, I think the positives outweigh the negatives. (Though if I can suggest ways to improve them even more, I’m not going to hold back 😉

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Is IronStylus still at Riot

IronStylus Final PortraitI’m quite here 🙂

Lots been going on recently. Lot’s of pretty crazy life stuff, honestly. Perhaps when it’s all over I’ll tell the tale.

Aside from that though, I’ve been working quite hard on Taric recently. Been a long ride, but we’re getting close to a concept which I think will work. Here’s hoping!

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If you have any questions, feel free to ask me at @NoL_Chefo or e-mail me at nolchefo@gmail.com.

 

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Fiora Final Champion Portrait

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  • Damage-per-level increased from 2.5 to 3.3
  • Health-per-level increased from 80 to 92

 

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  • Mana cost decreased from 25/30/35/40/45 to 20/25/30/35/40
  • Cooldown decreased from 18/16/14/12/10 seconds to 16/14/12/10/8

 

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  • Cooldown decreased from 21/19.5/18/16.5/15 seconds to 19/18/17/16/15

 

 

 

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  • [ BUGFIX ] Fixed a weird instance where Yasuo’s [ Q ] could hit enemies in random spots of the map

 

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  • [ COOL IT ] Fixed a bug where the cooldown of Frost Queen’s Claim’s active effect was resetting improperly

 

 

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Will Poppys ultimate remain the same after the rework

Scruffy Final PortraitHer old ultimate is not staying sorry to say. There is something to be said for how unique it is but the amount of frustration/confusion/abusive edge cases that it adds to the game outweighs the amount of fun/interesting gameplay that it brings.

Hopefully the new ult we have in the works will be much more exciting and interesting while not bringing with it so many negative costs. Wait and see just a short while longer and let us know what you think of it when it’s done.

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Thematically will Poppy still be a tenacious yordle ball of hate

Meddler Final PortraitWe’re aiming to preserve her personality – determined, heroic, sincere etc.

Must admit ‘ball of hate’ isn’t the vibe I get off Poppy at present, ‘ball of stubborness’, ‘ball of determination’, ‘ball of smash’ and so on being the sort of stuff I associate with Poppy. Curious as to other people’s thoughts though as to which few words you’d use to sum up Poppy’s personality overall?

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What parts of Poppys old kit will be preserved in her update

Scruffy Final PortraitWe’re keeping a few other things from her current kit (E being a big one, also her “low health tankiness”).

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Poppys current passive makes her immune to burst Will that change

Meddler Final PortraitWe’ll be replacing Poppy’s passive. We are thinking about keeping a ittle bit of ‘tough when low on health’ on the kit though, just in a much more apparent and balanceable way.

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DISCUSSION ON TALONS PASSIVE Banner

 

Whatre your thoughts on Talons passive

Scruffy Final PortraitNot Repertoir but I agree that Talon’s passive is pretty lackluster in both satisfaction and just how interesting it is compared to some of the stuff we can do now.

No plans for just a passive rework on him though as he is probably a champ that we would want to take on all at once. Build some more unique identity into the character, fix some of his one dimensional play, and create more clear opportunities for him outskilling his opponent and vice versa.

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What happened to Hephestopheless ideas to rework Talons passive

Meddler Final PortraitGiving Talon a reason to auto attack a bit more’s a solid goal for a passive on him. Very with you that it’s not accomplishing that at present though, it’s not core enough to his play pattern in terms of its contribution, his own ability to set it up or his capability to auto attack for an extended period.


As a side note Hephestopheles does indeed still work at Riot. Original developer intent’s something we like to refer to since it can offer useful insights into how to improve a champion and we’ll certainly tap Hephestopheles for his thoughts when doing work on Talon at some point. Working on a champion puts you in a great position to help maintain and develop them after they go out, it doesn’t mean you continue to control everything about them based off your personal preferences though. Doing what’s right for the character/game is the most important thing and means that if we grab Hephestopheles to chat about changing Talon his response is almost certainly going to be something along the lines of ‘awesome, how can we make him better?’.

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FURTHER WORK ON MISS FORTUNE Banner


Do youve any further plans to update Miss Fortune

Repertoir New PortraitYes. Statikk’s on it, but we don’t have anything ready to talk about just yet.

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So you guys are looking to improve her give her some buffs

Repertoir New PortraitReally want to focus on hitting her identity as some kind of run-and-gun aoe marksman as far as I know, but that’s about all I know for now.

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Neither you nor Statikk play Miss Fortune so why are you reworking her

Repertoir New PortraitThat’s a pretty unfair and short-sighted assessment.

I’m not an MF main, and neither is Statikk. You’re right about that, but that’s really of much less value than you’re making it out to be. People seem to think that Ashe and Sion were pretty successful updates in the recent past, and I can assure you that I was not an Ashe main and Scruffy was not a Sion main going into those projects.

Also, as designers, we participate in two full internal games every day amongst each other to test changes out and see where we want to take things. Additionally, we have an excellent playtest team full of Diamond, Masters, and Challenger players that play League pretty much nonstop and give us their opinions. Riot Umpunct, in particular, mained MF on his way to Masters this season.

For what it’s worth, Ezreal is literally the lead designer on my team.

I understand you may have concerns over your champion not getting its fair treatment, but please don’t turn things into a series of accusations against us for trying to share and get the champions into a good spot. Spewing insults at me and other Rioters does literally no good, and all it does is discourage us from trying to keep you guys in the loop and take your feedback into account.

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Miss Fortunes ult should deal way more damage than it currently does

Repertoir New PortraitWhen we first started talking about MF and what we might want to do for her, we had all these ideas, and Scruffy stepped in and just said “Guys, seriously, just double her ult’s damage and go from there.”

Now, Statikk didn’t do exactly that, but it at least gives an idea of where our heads are at with her.

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What do you think will happen to Nasus after Patch 5 16

Scruffy Final PortraitI agree that he’s in a pretty balanced spot right now. After 5.16, it’s not super clear how that will change (new items and a bunch of reworks could shake things up a lot). My guess is it’ll be about even with frozen heart nerf (hurts nasus) and Steraks Gage (+ base AD good for nasus/sheen users).

That said, the live balance team, the systems team, and the champ update team are all watching the results very closely so we can follow up where it’s needed.

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Do you think 5 16 s Armor item nerfs can hit Fighters harder than intended

Scruffy Final PortraitAbsolutely, I think that there is no crusade against tanks/fighters that i’ve heard of and the general fear is that they will end up too strong after 5.16. If in the end things go the other way and defensive characters get pushed down into a bad space, we will adjust things asap.

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Nasus has no incentive to build Health and his staple items are getting nerfed

Scruffy Final PortraitYea, the main issue as you say for nasus is that health items really don’t fit as well into his ideal builds. If he needs some tweaks after 5.16 giving him better ways to scale off health may be a way to keep him relevant in the new HP heavy item world.

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How far off are the Shyvana and Olaf reworks

Repertoir New PortraitEnd of year maybe? We know that we want to work on them, but we don’t yet know exactlywhat the output should be per champion yet.

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Are there any plans for Galio Aatrox and Tryndamere

Repertoir New PortraitAatrox is probably closest to a Juggernaut here, but even then, his mobility profile (free target dash, specifically) is pretty contradictory to our expectation for these guys, so working on him would probably come at costs to that or something else that players see as important to his identity. That said, Gypsylord was recently looking into giving Aatrox some love unrelated to ‘juggernaut’ work, so he may be ready to shed some light on that in the coming months.

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Are there any more Juggernauts in the works that arent Shyvana or Olaf

Repertoir New PortraitNo.

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Will you continue to work on Morde if hes not viable after Patch 5 16

Meddler Final PortraitWe’ve put time aside for follow up work on all four juggernauts, and the new items, during both 5.17 and 5.18’s development in case it’s needed. Morde’s definitely the highest risk project of the four, both in terms of scope of changes and change in playstyle, so it seems a reasonable assumption he might need more follow up attention than average.


We’ll make sure to give you folks some visibility into how we think each of those reworks is going post launch and what we are or aren’t planning to change in response to that. One thing we do want to watch out for though is reacting too quickly to day one performance. With any rework a lot of people that aren’t familiar with a champ, or haven’t played them for a long time, give them a try to see what they’re like now. That temporarily pulls a champ’s performance down a lot briefly, as the need to learn new mechanics even for more experienced players. Day 1 win rates noticeably below a champ’s previous win rate are basically expected as a result, though there’s certainly a limit to how much lower they should be (Fiora for example’s just too weak at present, in addition to going through that learning curve/new player period).

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Do youve any plans to update Quinn

Repertoir New PortraitI am actually actively doing some work on Quinn. One of the things I want to address is that Harrier just seems like it screws me over when playing her sometimes. We’re supposed to be a dynamic duo. Please mark more useful targets, Valor. Please stop taking your time to mark things, Valor. And Quinn, maybe people would take your attacks seriously if they felt like they were aiming to injure someone.

That’s my general attitude on Quinn, anyway.

We’re not at the point yet where I can discuss full details, but they’re high up on my personal radar.

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Is Quinns toplane kit preventing her from being played as an ADC

Repertoir New PortraitQuinn is a bit of an oddball, in that identifying what lane she belongs in isn’t an easy task. However, being an adc and being played in a solo lane are not necessarily mutually exclusive, as we have seen from some other guys like Ezreal, Varus, and occasionally Corki being played in solo lanes.

If the meta were ever to shift away from marksman in a duo lane, Quinn’s value would probably be a lot higher, but that hasn’t been the case for quite a long time, so it’s hard to say with certainty if that’s ever going to come back.

It would probably be the safest thing for us to figure out what is unique and/or cool about Quinn and see how we can amplify that and make it something useful that teams care about having. If we could make “ranged carry that becomes melee carry” provide a different output that you wouldn’t just get from another melee carry, then that would probably serve the character well. If we couldn’t, we’d probably have to look to other facets of Quinn to emphasize as her cool and uniquely powerful thing(s).

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STATE OF VEIGAR AND UPDATE ON TARICS REWORK Banner

 

Hopefully Tarics update will include the Charm mechanic you talked about before

IronStylus Final PortraitTrying to. It’s an interesting balance, and one not without its inherent dangers. A lot of people have attachment to Taric for various reasons. Since he’s such an old asset, there’s more space for individuals to project their fantasy onto him.

Expectation is different in everyone’s eyes, even internally. I and other artists have been working on him for a while also. We’ve gone through LOTS of iterations and are still probably a little ways out from settling on something solid. We have some cool ideas for just what is “gem magic”, how it manifests, and what makes Taric Taric. It’s been a journey, that’s for sure.

Right now we’re hoping to have his concept locked later this month, or sometime next month. Not sure at all about release, since we’ve got some other large projects in the pipeline now we might not hit the end of the year for him, but here’s hoping!

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Are you content with leaving Veigar in his current state

Scruffy Final PortraitVeigar wasn’t a champion update (the team I work on) but I know that the live gameplay designers did not intend to nerf him from the onset. It may be time for some tweaks for him if he’s not viable so I’ll run it by them and see if there is any room for a buff.

If he’s already strong there may be other ways to improve his QoL without buffing him. Will investigate, no promises.

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Upcoming change to patch day for OCE

Agent Mindstar:  TL:DR Starting with patch 5.16, Oceania will be the first region in the world to receive future patches. Our patch day will now be Wednesday mornings instead of Thursday mornings.

Hey everyone,

I want to share an upcoming change to Oceania’s patch timing. Starting with the next patch, Oceania will be moving up from Thursdays to Wednesdays. We’re also taking the opportunity to shift downtime a bit to better match when most of you are offline. (Neat side-note: this means Oceania will be the first region in the world to receive future patches)

We’ll provide more timing updates as we get closer to enacting this change.

If you have any questions about this let us know in the comments below!

Mindstar

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If you have any questions, feel free to ask me at @NoL_Chefo or e-mail me at nolchefo@gmail.com.